Permaculture

Writings

Part Sixteen: Returning to the Roots

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Read part one of this series here.

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Permaculture: dancing with tech while getting rooted to Mother Earth

Su Dennett contemplating on ancient red gum with roots exposed by floodwater erosion at Bingara on the Gwydir River, NSW, 2019

Taking advantage of currently available technology to establish systems that have the potential to persist into futures without those technologies being cheap, or even available, has been an important permaculture strategy from the beginning. In my own journey, as with many other permaculture designers, earthworks created with diesel-powered equipment is the most prominent example. But the use of computers and the internet to network and spread ideas follows the same logic, as does early adoption of modern renewables. 

So while it could make sense for us to take advantage of available and affordable renewable technology manufactured in China to cut down on carbon, the main reason we do this is the benefits such technology provide, hopefully in establishing systems that can outlive and partly replace that technology if and when it is no longer available. Just as with bulldozers and computers, we should remain aware that we are getting most of the benefits and not suffering many of the downsides. On the other hand, when we plant trees, build fertile water- and nutrient-holding soil or rehydrate eroded stream courses, these could benefit the local climate in ways that are not subject to the tragedy of the commons, at the same time as they extract carbon dioxide directly from the atmosphere and sequester it in landscape. As with bulldozers, computers and solar panels, the main reason we plant trees is for the direct benefits that we, our descendants and inheritors are likely to gain. Enlightened self-interest is a much more reliable and true focus for our energies than commitment to apparently noble, but remote and abstract, goals set by systems we have little influence over.

Being a contributor to Mother Nature’s 400-million-year-old strategies for making the land abundant and beautiful is a psychological and even spiritual benefit that for many people trumps the tumbling turbines or mirror reflection off solar farms that increasingly cover our rural landscapes. I understand that for some people the countryside is boring, and needs to be made more like the city for them to feel at home. Each to his own, but unfortunately the city now demands even more of the countryside to be remade to allow the city to claim it is sustainable. While rooftop solar is probably a good distributed use of existing surfaces to produce energy close to where it is used, the energy density of renewables is not high enough to support inner-urban cores and industrial centres. Thus each city requires a further transformation of the hinterland to harvest the sun and wind in the hope they can replace what currently comes from less pervasive, but very energy dense, ‘holes in the ground’ harvesting ancient (fossil) sunlight. 

Finally, fudging the frugality issue necessary for a just and enduring future was understandable, given that world elites are corrupt and cavalier in their own conspicuous consumption. Without the infrastructure of authoritarian control in place, it was necessary to sell the nonsense future of a clean green, cheap and reliable energy future delivering a safe and equitable climate. But like my suggestion that if you want to force mass change you need to hit the population when they’re vulnerable, I am having second thoughts about the frugality message that is now finally emerging, increasingly justified by the climate story especially in relation to personal movement and meat consumption. It is hard to assert that we all need to tighten our belts when the elites keep tightening the purse strings and the straightjackets for the majority. 

The disappearing wealth thesis and the Holmgren Human Wealth Indicator

One of the most influential articles I read over the years of reading resilence.org was a piece by Erik Lindberg from Transition Milwaukie suggesting the obscene accumulation of wealth by the power elites over recent decades may be a self-organisation characteristic of industrial modernity to avoid crashing the financial system. No matter how gross and obscene the consumption of the super-rich, it is not very significant except symbolically. The aggregate impact is limited as there are so few of them. Most of their wealth is virtual, in stocks and assets and financial instruments that could potentially be converted into demand for real resources but is currently parked. If this wealth were redistributed to either the global middle class or the global underclass, then the immediate result would be expenditure in the material economy, thus massively increasing the demand for energy and materials. If the world is close to limits of extraction rate for key resources, then prices would be driven to great heights, which would almost certainly result in the collapse of the debt-based financial system and a consequential seizure of the global economy. By having the money parked with the rich, the system is effectively avoiding collapse, at least temporarily. The more fundamental point is that the wealth of billionaires doesn’t really exist because it is impossible for it to be realised in actual consumption. 

This is not an argument against the Gandhian notion of leadership frugality, but the recognition that the rage that thrives on both the radical left and the right against the obscene wealth of power elites, may be counterproductive. If it drives mass mobilisation in the expectation of material wealth for all, then this is just a different pathway for collapse. Instead, I encourage everyone to recognise and grow one’s own wealth and reduce the power of the rich over us through the magic of recognising that the emperor has no clothes. All that is necessary is for us to see it, and then focus on recognising and husbanding our own non-financial forms of wealth such as measured by Chris Ennis’s Holmgren Human Wealth Indicator.

Nevertheless, I remain convinced that frugal futures are coming for most, if not all of us; our kin and communities here and around the world. That the renewable energy rollout might fail to maintain business-as-usual growth and instead contribute to diversifying our energy sources for a frugal future, at greater cost but without raping the planet and covering the land and sea, is my hope for a benign Energy Descent future. That this diversified energy base might support us in our real task of regenerating the Earth’s biological abundance for the wellbeing of future generations and nature is perhaps a naïve hope, but it is at least energetically plausible.

Climate change in retrospect

I no longer think the models of GHG driven climate change are necessarily giving us much of a heads up on the climate futures we face locally or globally. Potentially they could be completely wrongheaded and divert attention from a plethora of other threats. That the climate narrative is increasingly being used to enclose people in a techno-straightjacket separate from nature I think is obvious to more and more ordinary Australians.

So do I regret any of the practical actions and passions I have pursued over the decades of waxing and waning belief and scepticism about the anthropogenic emissions driven climate change narrative? 

Not at all! The climate story has always been just one thread in a fabric of evidence, stories, and rationales for why I have chosen to live differently from the forces enclosing us and taking us away from nature. Despite many of my projections about energy, society and climate having not come true, at least so far, the apparently ‘unnecessary’ investments and self-disciplines I have engaged in have still allowed me to live a fulfilling life with a sense of contributing to a better world.

In terms of existential issues that could affect my own and my family’s commitment to Djaara Mother Country I see climate as a continuing force to be reckoned with each season and never taken for granted. Of course before too many years or decades, Su and I will be buried in the same grave where my mother’s bodily remains have already gone back to the land. 

But for others in our communities, especially our youth, I encourage them to think and act positively in the face of many changes and challenges, most of which I believe will emerge from the psycho-social, financial and geopolitical realms over the coming decades. One of the greatest hopes is for the lessons we can learn from Nature herself as she eco-synthesises novel ecologies of ‘old timer’ and ‘new comer’ species in a multicultural profusion of abundance. 

Teaching about the wondrous process of ecosynthesis restoring landscape function and creating novel resources for future generations. Spring Creek, Vern Howell Arboretum

Of equal importance offering so many creative challenges are the opportunities to parasitise, retrofit and remanufacture many of the wastes and discards of the old system. This obtainium engineering revolution will only be limited by our imaginations, in the way Mollison spoke optimistically about permaculture design being only limited by imagination.

I believe, at least in Australia, the combination of whatever surpluses Mother Country provides, along with the castoffs of the old system, there is a pathway to future sustenance, or even frugal hedonism.

Machiavellian regrets

Do I have some regrets about articulating the hard Machiavellian methods to nudge the public in directions necessary to serve an agenda no matter how noble in intent? I now see those same strategies weaponised by the media in service of the climate cause. Mass formation by well-intentioned do-gooders seems to be morphing into some woke version of Mao’s Red Guards to implement the plans of psychopathic powerbrokers, desperate from the unravelling of their empire of lies. 

It is clearly ridiculous for me to now feel guilty for articulating those strategies so many years ago, but the old adage ‘be careful what you wish for’, and the idea that was powerful for my Jewish ancestors as ‘people of the book’, that words spoken and written into this world do have the power to come to life, for better and worse. Maybe there is magic, for better and worse, in words and intention, in the sense that John Michael Greer defines magic as being the art and science of changing consciousness through an act of will. I find this idea more realistic and empowering than any hope for magic in the material world that overrides the laws of physics and biology.

That (magic) change of consciousness starts with the self, and thus our experience of the material world, and extends naturally to changing the hearts and minds of others without force in the bodily realm. 

For me, the climate story has become something akin to a fearful religious belief held close by a majority of so-called ‘well educated’ folk with a strong ethical sense of concern and care for the wider world. I continue to respect that belief as genuine, and apparently supported by a vast body of authoritative science, but I no longer share their faith.

Left and right world views

One of the ideas I have come across in my exposure to socially conservative people on the right is research in which Republican and Democrat voters were asked a series of questions about their values and political priorities in the world. The Republicans’ replies showed a clear pattern akin to a permaculture zoning model with priority to self and family, followed by geographic community with attenuating concern and interest out to the global, including issues such as climate change. The Democrat voters’ answers tended to start with global and abstract values and progress the other way to considering the self last – even if their behaviour actually included strong elements of ‘me first’ just like the Republicans.

I found this so useful. Firstly, I prefer the honesty about self-interest rather than hypocritical articulation of high ideals and virtue signalling. Secondly, I like the idea that we can know most and judge best about what is closest to us, while considering things of great abstraction or geographic distance, we are forced to rely almost completely on secondary sources of information and so are vulnerable to being misinformed and gamed by actors beyond our feedback or even understanding. Lastly I see the tendency of activists on the left to self-sacrifice for the cause as one of the evolutionary conundrums of modern society where the apparently enlightened folk thinking about future generations have no children and fail to pass on their genes, epigenetic changes and memes. 

Maya Ward, Warburton, Victoria, Californian Redwood plantation (one of the most spectacular examples of Nature’s vast capacity to sequester carbon in beautiful and enduring form in our bioregion). Maya is one of my Green Left colleagues with whom we managed to maintain respectful discussion during the Covid crisis, agreeing to disagree and maintain mutual respect, 2019

I still am shocked by how many capable, well-educated and younger people have been seriously injured or died as a result of the Covid vaxes and still they and/or their families believe it would have been worse without the vax. This reminds me of the mentality that led to the Jonestown cult mass death where well-meaning and educated folk came to actions against all human instinct.

The evidence that great ideals can turn into horrors worse than the simple but sometimes brutal instinctive actions of self-preservation, is a recurring theme in art and literature. But rather than dwell too much on those dark potentials, most dramatically associated with the charismatic demagogues of the 20th century, I prefer to recognise the strengths and weaknesses in both the perspectives unearthed by interviewing Republicans and Democrats. My regular use of the phrase ‘enlightened self-interest’ to describe how I characterise permaculture activism is my own attempt to encapsulate the strengths of both the me-first and the world-first perspectives and how this view can reframe the environmental slogan ‘think globally and act locally’. 

Solidarity with the deplorables

After a life of being critical of people mindlessly following the ‘more materialism is good for me and my family’ meme, I now feel solidarity with the battlers and disbelievers who see more of the fenced enclosure and less of the benefits of the shiny new green future being sold to escape the climate trap. For decades I have witnessed how those in even the moderately high ranks of society simply walk away from their failures, while those at the bottom on the job, still in the dirt and the weather, continue to face the consequences of their stuff-ups whether in the market, social standing or from what Nature serves up in return. Whether it is farmers in hock to the banks producing the cheapest staple food in history, truckers working to keep the goods flowing or miners providing a last human link in the machine extraction of everything middle class urban dwellers need to exist, my solidarity has been with these folk. This has not just been since the massive anti-mandate marches, but extending back to French farmers spraying government buildings with shit, and Hillary Clinton’s disorganised ‘deplorables’ who brought Trump to the presidency against all expectations of the cosy elite and intelligentsia and, just like Marie Antoinette, thought they should all eat their iPhones. 

The modern Australian equivalent of the woodchop competition. The attitudes of the people who gather to participate or spectate at this event express values and attitudes radically out of step with the norms of Australian intelligentsia and media. They represent the closest humans to the actual and proverbial ‘coal face’ extracting the wealth the Australia intelligentsia depends on.

My whole life has been an effort to reduce dependence on so-called ‘essential workers’ but because I have done so, I understand better than most just how dependent I remain, at least indirectly, on those who keep the wheels of the society machine turning. While those who actually do the essential work received unavoidable but temporary recognition in the Covid era as ‘essential workers’, this too could have been just another nudge unit meme to enforce compliance in those same battlers. 

There is an overlap between this valid sense of solidarity with the ‘essential workers’ and some empathy, if not agreement, with ordinary conservative and comfortable middle class folk who see no good reason why the world at large, or their lives in particular, need to change. These people remind me of all those citizens of the Soviet Union who turned up to work each day, and received their pay plus the other benefits of the socialist economy until that system imploded, shattering expectations. Many older Russian men just drank themselves to death. For the comfortable middle class of western societies, I believe the future could be even more of a shock.

Currently it looks like AI might wipe away most of the jobs of the professional class including all those who fought their way through the education system at great cost to become doctors and lawyers, only to find their work is done cheaper by machine learning. After decades of trying to encourage young people to walk away from the education system, I find myself caught between a sense of empathy for those who followed the signals from society and a feeling of schadenfreude about people who don’t have the willpower to follow their own paths of enlightened self-interest.

The collapse of the comfortable middle class could make the tilt towards far-right politics in the working class appear mild in comparison to the rise of the angry left mobilising the failed intelligentsia. 

The edge principle

During Covid some commentators asked whether my dissident stance was just an automatic rejection of whatever the majority thought was good. I freely admitted that my instinctive reaction to a mob running one way is to quietly walk off in the opposite direction, but that is balanced by wanting to avoid pain and suffering as well as be acknowledged and accepted by others. So I do consider my reactions were reasonable, and well justified by evidence coming to light since, and certainly not able to be dismissed simply because of a history and ongoing tendency to be a dissident. 

The edge principle in permaculture can be interpreted as avoiding the majority or dominant view by default. I believe that through periods of cultural stability, the conservative instinct, built into all traditional societies from the indigenous to the industrial, is generally functional for society as a whole, if not the free spirits constrained by it. In such times, social norms and institutions carry culture for the long haul.

But in times of turmoil and change, I reason the norms become counterproductive, the experts and the majority are wrong more often than not, and creative responses emerge from the margins. In fossil fuelled affluent globalised post modernity, the amount and diversity of creativity at the fringes is staggering. Just as in comparable periods of history, much of this activity is froth and flotsam that is likely to disappear after a great culling of activity, if not individuals, and a new ecological and societal stability emerges. I believe this new steady state likely emerges from the creative fusion of effective novel designs, with foreign imports as well as a rekindling of the truths and practices that once underpinned institutions and social norms. These hybrid cultures will be different everywhere in response to the local history and context.

Environmental crusades

I remain committed to encouraging radicals and visionaries everywhere to be the guinea pigs of their own experiments, to live different and better lives, not to get too caught up in complaining about the structural obstacles stopping us doing so, and never to succumb to the lure of power to force others to follow the vision, which inevitably leads to totalitarianism.

In the early days of evangelical interest in permaculture with Mollison as its guru, I had fears about the potential for some form of eco-fascist movement spreading in the wake of the system collapse that I thought was approaching. Over the decades, I have become more sanguine about the larger benefits from permaculture as a movement, despite its downsides, but my visions of eco-fascism that I see modelled on that of Covid and its discontents is stronger than ever. 

Bill Mollison with a group of students, 1981. Photo Copyright: © Diana Mara Henry / www.dianamarahenry.com

In the 80s, I occasionally had nightmares about some local right wing fascist mob dragging me off, and some of my redneck close associates standing at the back of the crowd saying nothing. As a result of Covid and the hardening of the Climate Crusade, those scenarios are replaced by images of being dragged away by the authorities, and my Green friends and colleagues watching silently. I don’t mean to suggest I live in fear of such events, but we all have dark stories we tell ourselves. That inversion of the story is, I think, emblematic of how things have changed. Some would jump on this admission as evidence that I have turned into some right wing, climate denying baby boomer exhibiting ‘white fragility’. Rather than strongly reject such accusations, I am more inclined to just sit with them, or maybe respond like I have to the accusation that I have become an anti-vaxer. Yes, I was just against the Covid experimental jabs but now I have decided to throw the baby of establishment medicine out with the bathwater of corporate contamination. 

For a more nuanced analysis of how the Green Left have turned, or alternatively shown their true colours, Paul Kingsnorth, a writer whose trajectory has some parallels to my own, recently quoted the Canadian ‘red Tory’ philosopher George Grant who suggested that: ‘the directors of General Motors and the followers of Professor Marcuse sail down the same river in different boats.’ Kingsnorth added, ‘These days, they have abandoned their separate vessels and are sailing downstream in a superyacht together, while the rest of us gawp or throw rocks from the banks’. 

I would love discussion and debate, public or private, with any of my Green colleagues on some key issues such as Trump, Covid, Censorship, Ukraine, or Equity, Inclusion and Disadvantage, but especially the Climate Crusade to explore the various shifts in values and positions. Perhaps we might still find some old Green Left common cause in relation to Israel and Gaza to remind us that the shifting values and alliances are complex and multilayered. And if the Deep State succeeds in starting a new hot war with Iran, and Trump takes the bait, then I will be with them in whatever sort of resistance is possible. 

Maybe all crusades, environmental and otherwise, reach limits and encourage some form of blowback. I suspect we have probably reached peak climate change belief globally. What many mistake for a rising tide of belief, may be just a hardening of belief by most, if not all, of those already committed, along with an increasing chorus of media, NGOs, corporations and government institutions that are proclaiming the overwhelming consensus of all authorities. At the same time they deplatform, censor and punish the dissenting voices following the shameful and authoritarian model rolled out globally for Covid, for which there has been nothing approaching a truth and reconciliation process. 

The idea that Truth is a fragile maiden needing protection from the stones and arrows of lies and corruption is countered by the idea that Truth is a lion. Set it free and it will defend itself. Historically, censorship has always been used to hide truths that are inconvenient, embarrassing or even an existential threat to existing power elites. The rapidly unfolding deplatforming, censorship and punishment of dissident thinkers and actors, combined with the trail of officially acknowledged lies and corruption over the last two decades, is indicative of the fragility of the order we live under. 

I understand and empathise with friends, colleagues and associates who find my analysis bleak because it suggests that the breaking of trust in our institutions of science, media, commerce and governance is so great that we are moving to a primitive state where the trust horizon shrinks to what we can see with our own senses, and to whom we would entrust our lives and our children’s. In the virtual world of finance, trust can vanish in a flash faster than climate can change or oil deplete. While trust in institutions may last a little longer after their degeneration and dysfunction, when that trust is gone it can leave us naked and exposed.

Without being able to necessarily trust anything else, we find ourselves disconnected and lacking in skills, common sense, gut instincts and other capacities that our ancestors took for granted. Thus we are truly primitives. Alternatively, we can trust our lives to the Machine as our parent and protector from all the fearful and uncertain emergent realities of the unravelling of industrial civilisation, a theme the insightful film The Matrix explores (even if its energetical implausible and action storyline initially turned me away from giving credence to its deeper message). 

Conclusion: at peace with the process

We can discard ideas, behaviours and even addictions like worn out shoes that are no longer fit for purpose, and if necessary, or if it takes our fancy, become free of shoes altogether. Just like the Romans of the late stage of Empire who freed themselves of the burdens of citizenship and faced the challenges of living as barbarians closer to Mother Earth, those people are adapting to emerging realities and creating new ways to live outside of a failing system to forge a new culture. In the much-denigrated medieval period of European history, for nearly 1000 years, our peasant ancestors shared use of the commons, and maintained a degree of autonomy from both state and church power. Many indentured serfs worked as little as one day a week for their masters and were free to arrange the rest of their time and energy as they saw fit, foraging from the commons, socialising or just drinking homebrew. Hopefully our descendants will be able to forge a culture with even better results for both nature and humanity through the centuries of Energy Descent that are likely to follow the exhaustion of fossil fuels and overly complex technologies and institutions built on that foundation. In this way, humanity may progressively discard the worn out but still constricting shoes of industrial modernity and again walk free on Mother Earth. 

Permaculture, both in conception, articulation and a life well lived, is my attempt to contribute to that process. I feel fortunate that so many others have also found permaculture empowering, even if many don’t follow some of my lines of thought and action. I feel comfortable with a diversity of understandings about the reality, or otherwise, of climate change within permaculture and kindred networks. 

We need a flowering of diverse, small and slow responses without power concentrated to the point that any ideological framework can be forced on people and nature. What I do assert, with whatever natural authority I have in those networks, is that in a time of radical uncertainty and change, divergent responses are the way nature and society evolve. With Covid, some colleagues pointed to the damage, real or imagined, that the behaviour of some would or could cause for others and the collective welfare of society. That these memes were crafted to appeal most strongly to those with the deepest ethical concerns for the disadvantaged and the collective, on the political left is now, I think, self-evident. 

My request in relation to the ‘Climate Emergency’ is for family, friends and dear colleagues to resist any idea of demonising, let alone punishing the apparent bad behaviour of individuals, households and small business folk pursuing their own notions of self-interest. Instead, I would ask them to do something far less challenging than Jesus did to his followers in asking them to turn the other cheek. No one needs to submit to real cases of direct harm from others. However, to support the use of state and social power to condemn and criminalise the behaviour of others based on abstractions and the theory of collective responsibility is never acceptable, no matter how much ‘The Science’ appears to support it. 

Using the lens of political philosophy to label permaculture, I think my 50 years with Climate Change could be quite accurately depicted as a meandering journey, informed by a fusion of Anarchist and Libertarian thinking, recognising the importance of both collective and individualist impulses that drive both nature and humanity. Just as the radical thinker Ivan Illich said of the ambiguous complementarity between the (two) genders, the individualist and collective impulses are both part of deep human cultural heritage, apparently opposite in nature but complementary and balancing each other. 

Most of recorded history shows that in periods of stability, institutions carry proven cultural patterns for the long haul. However, in times of change, individuals and small self-organised groups salvage the truths from the breakdown of the old culture and project forward new conceptions of living within limits into a future which is yet to be more widely understood, let alone crafted. The great irony that spiritual historian William Irwin Thompson refers to is how previous examples of successful cultural transition, notably Pythagoras’s role in the origins of western civilization and the monks of Lindisfarne in peacefully converting Britain to Christianity, include tragic stories of destruction of the visionary’s places or projects, and yet their visions prevailed anyway. In putting my hands, heart and soul into Melliodora and other physical expressions of permaculture, I have always been aware of the potential for nature and human affairs to extinguish those examples. Consequently, it is the inspiration and learning by others that is the seed to carry what is of value into the future. 

Similarly I accept that permaculture itself may be just a temporary flowering followed by a hardening, ossification and death. But I am confident that its diverse expressions will themselves produce abundant seeds that blow in the winds to the future. Many will fall on barren ground, others will sprout and later wither in the seasonal wilds, while a few will find the niche and microclimate to flourish and grow a new culture no matter how harsh a field this culture leaves in its wake. 

In a presentation to the International Society for the System Sciences in July 2022, ‘Permaculture: System design for an energy descent future’, I used this slide to conclude by speaking of William Irwin Thompson’s model of cultural transition.

Whether my own ambiguous appreciative dance with the wider permaculture movement, which has continued to acknowledge me and my ongoing influence, despite the very different path I followed from my elder co-originator and mentor Bill Mollison, survives this writing might be a test of whether the movement is already hardening around a series of dogmas that the majority of followers all assert and believe. 

Usually challenges to dogmas come from outside institutions or movements. But in some cases, the very leaders of movements can seek to overturn those same dogmas. Krishnamurti is perhaps the most famous example from the 20th century. In my own case, right from the early days of the movement, I found my role was to challenge ideas, even when they were ones that I proposed, and so this questioning of the dogma of GHG driven climate change perfectly reflects this half century long story. 

Krishnamurti in 1952, his work and recorded video can be accessed at kfoundation.org

Acknowledgements and Afterword

It is now a year since I began writing this Climate Series starting on the Spring Equinox and finishing around the Summer Solstice. Editing for clarity, finding images, mostly from my various archives, finding links to the modest number of references, and some basic fact checking have continued as the essays have been published progressively over the last 8 months. However, like the editing we did for the second edition of Permaculture: Principles and pathways beyond sustainability in 2017 (originally published in 2002), I resisted the temptation to modify, moderate or further explain at length any of the thoughts, feelings or records of action contained in this work. 

That process has been a dance between myself, Beck Lowe, as editor and factchecker, and Meg Ulman as ‘publisher’ who adds and oversees content on the Holmgren Design website. In addition, I would like to acknowledge the support of the rest of the Holmgren Design team including Ostii, Kathryn, Sun, Catie and of course Su Dennett who was the first to hear and give feedback on my reading of the first drafts, day after day, last year. In particular, I want to mention the encouragement of Meg Ulman and long-time colleague Richard Telford in recording readings of the essays, providing a stepping stone to doing an audio book of Permaculture: Principles and pathways beyond sustainability.

These essays provide a snapshot of my thinking in late 2024 before many of the tumultuous changes that have unfolded since, most notably for many people in the Anglo-American world, the second Trump administration. While many might attribute much of the chaos and confusion in the world to this one man, I think more fundamental forces are reshaping the world almost on a daily basis and I note two processes in response. One is the exponential proliferation of voices, a Biblical Tower of Babel, with endless variants of hotly exclaimed certainties as old certainties unravel before us. AI is supercharging this process, just as the signs of AI following the boom-and-bust pattern of the Dot-com bubble a quarter of a century ago begin to unfold. 

The other process is a retreat to close-at-hand familiar certainties and immediate concerns in the face of an ongoing loss of faith in trying to understand the wider world. This second trend seems to be both psychological self-defence against the algorithmic flip flop of attention and outrage, as well as a retreat to trusted sources both close and distant.

One change that I see unfolding since I wrote in the essay series is about the historic reversal of attitudes to censorship and freedom of speech on the political Right and Left. Especially in the USA, the dramatic political change, and ongoing conflict, has led to the Trump administration now applying some forms of censorship while the Left, in radical retreat, is again beginning to express support for freedom of speech. I see this flip flop as confirming my thesis that those in power tend toward censorship, while those out of power articulate the importance of free speech. As an author and public intellectual, with some limited influence, but always out of power (by choice), I follow the pattern in always supporting freedom of expression. 

And the way the world is going, maybe my common cause with Green Left colleagues that I alluded to in relation to Israel and Gaza could grow over time. In relation to climate change, I suspect that the peak and decline of the narrative, which I suggested was underway, could see my support for trying to save the baby of environmental awareness and regenerative living when the now putrid bathwater of carbon fundamentalism and the globalist responses get the toss. And I expect some in permaculture and kindred networks will blame me, at least in part, for the fragmentation of the permaculture movement. Just as I fretted about my mere suggestion of the logic of the Machiavellian highlighting of climate change as a cause of natural disasters when people are in the middle of trauma, I’m fine with the judgement of others, and what historians (if they still exist) will make of it all. Already some of the later essays in the series have brought out some savage comments and, as far as I’m concerned, that’s fine and I encourage anyone to give feedback rather than quietly self-censoring their concerns that the co-originator of permaculture could hold the views expressed in these essays. 

But if and when the feedback does intensify, my perhaps vain hope is that both critics and supporters of the climate change narrative will read the whole story to better understand some of the global and personal elements that have shaped the half century long journey of one actor in that grand narrative. 

David Holmgren
Permaculture Co-originator
Melliodora on Dja Dja Wurrung Country
Spring Equinox 2025

Comments

108 thoughts on “Part Sixteen: Returning to the Roots”

  1. Hi David…
    Tried to post this to your climate story 14 but your website shows “critical error on this website”.

    Updating your comments on lack of rural support for renewables, ReNew Economy has posted a piece with updated poll findings:

    • A new poll shows that 62% of residents in Australia’s Renewable Energy Zones support solar and wind energy projects.
    • Despite the majority support for clean energy, only 37% of respondents believed that most people in their region support it.
    • Farmers For Climate Action emphasizes the importance of understanding and addressing community concerns regarding renewable energy projects.

    I can’t provide the direct link as your website says you have blacklisted the ReNew Economy website as spam. You can find it dated November 8 this year with the headline: “Listen to farmers, not Facebook:” Poll reveals majority of REZ residents support solar and wind development.
    https://reneweconomy.com.au/listen-to-farmers-not-facebook-poll-reveals-majority-of-rez-residents-support-solar-and-wind-development/

  2. “At the same time they deplatform, censor and punish the dissenting voices following the shameful and authoritarian model ….”

    Oh the irony. That you cannot see yourself David is probably an indicator of how self-unenlightened Permaculture has become.

  3. Thank you, David for this series. I completely agree with all you said and I have followed – in a much humbler position – the same path.
    I live in South America and here too the polarized debate between the completely degraded and old-fashioned factions formerly known as left and right has nothing to do with what is really going on in the background.
    The Faustian individual, as Spengler would say, is dying of old age and with it all this long trend of Western dominance. When I refer to “the west” it is not only the European nations and their colonies, it is an abstraction that may apply to other civilizations even currently opposed to the Atlanticist cabal.
    The different crisis that you mention, resource depletion, land degradation, cultural decay, etc, are always present in the death throes of any civ and also, as you said, these times bring about new ideas, concepts, values and approaches.
    Permaculture is part of the new world in whatever form it may take. It is part of those fringe movements that may help us transition to the new “dark ages” when we will be forced to change our relationship with each other and the environment to survive.

    1. @Sebastian, You have missed David’s most important point which is that western academics and western science is a woke cultural Marxist conspiracy funded by the elites When we dismiss science we see the light. Resource depletion, land degradation, cultural decay, climate change etc are all the fake news of the old world of decay and sin. That’s what they science wants you to believe. We need to understand this new vision. We need throw the baby of establishment medicine out with the bathwater of corporate contamination, along with all the science, Peak Oil Theory, climate change, ecological systems science, they all come from the same big oil that are deceiving you and destroying sacred nature. Science wants you to believe that there are no resources left, when in fact we are in the prosperous world of Permacultural plenty. The limits to culture, economic or technical growth are only manifested by the stories you tell about them. The new world awaits you in Valhalla. My heart goes out to you. It is thanks to you that the future of civilization is assured.

  4. Thank you David, was a nice read and discussed a lot similar things that have happened to me over the past 5 years. Has been a strange time, bit I fear war will be next on the cards. Such is history I suppose.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about the savage comments, it’s mostly just old Merser giving himself a weekly rhetorical dry root huff and puff that expends a lot of energy but doesn’t seem to go anywhere particularly interesting.

    Would not surprise me at all if he is a paid troll as he uses many of their tired and boring tropes and seems to have infinite energy to post individualised invective that never actually addresses what is being discussed, rather just plays around with snarky wit like a teenager with his willy.

    That being said, I would have been dreadfully disappointed if you didn’t fire off a parting shot Merser. Bravo.

    1. Hahaha. Well when you’re on the far right all roads lead to simple subjectivism. It didn’t take long for David’s happy-clappy Transphobic followers to descend into a fascination with genitals, reference to sexual acts and conspiracy theories. So, David do you see who your supporters are now? That’s a long way from a practical method for the implementation Key Line in the landscape. People are not here for the “Permaculture”, unless permaculture has become a form of sexualised abuse.

      1. Oh come on Merser there are far funnier things for you to critique than the lazy troll/bot version of taking one line or piece of text and riffing it on it to the theme of your regime approved positions, to arrive at some gotcha destination that only exists in your head.

        You’re better than that, give us something more edgy.

        How about asking David if as a person of Jewish descent he feels unsafe or is concerned about hanging out with neo Nazis like us?

        Or offering an Odum based critique of the permaculture movement itself, and under the maximum power principle had no chance of achieving anything much at all, and David’s lurch to join us demonic crazies on the far right is just the MPP in action?

        1. I’m sure David will be happy to talk for himself if you ask him politely enough. Or not. I mean he certainly seems hell bent on a fragile ego censorship of valid criticisms.

          Since you’re an Odum expert, perhaps you can provide a simulation model of your thinking? Or are you yet another Permaculturist that is all talk and rebuts argument by descending into fetishised transphobic anti-woke obsessions about genitals? I mean, it makes sense, that’s what you get with the far right, but its up to you to step up to the plate and show us all how much you know about what you’re talking about.

          1. Just another note here for you David, and this is what I’ve been pointing at all along. By summoning the anti-science, anti-woke, anti academic demon, and dog-whistling to the far right, you get people that are not at all interested in the Permaculture of old. The Permaculture that was interested in caring for people and planet, DEI and sustainable design principles. Now its all about infantile mud slinging.

            1. If I may, you’re the only person here I see doing any mudslinging, and I personally am very interested in the permaculture of old. Primarily because I don’t think it would be swallowing all the lies and propaganda you seem to want to push.

            2. @ Nick, Sorry for the late reply. Oh! Lies and propaganda? 🙂 No I’m just parroting David’s mudslinging. That’s the norm these days. There are no rational arguments anymore. Just conspiracies and made up concepts to cast shade. What’s good for the goose…
              The old Permaculture was what exactly? A platform for David’s obsessions? A business model based on selling courses and certificates? I’m not sure even what Permaculture was supposed to be, but it ended up being a self-imposed austerity and Amway for gardeners.
              Lies? Propaganda? I haven’t pushed anything other than whatever David has pushed. Dare you to point out any lies of propaganda that I’ve been pushing … Everything is messed up and Permaculture of Old is not the way.

  5. Maybe David’s ProFa pivot is an attempt to avoid Permaculture being a proscribed organisation? The old Permaculture, the Permaculture of grass-roots Anarchist community groups and loosely aligned political gardeners and landscape architects working together in enlightened self-interest is firmly in the crosshairs. Who knows where this ends. Just make sure you’re a bitter rural transphobic Christian white male and you should be ‘right mate. GLTA. https://www.state.gov/releases/2025/11/terrorist-designations-of-antifa-ost-and-three-other-violent-antifa-groups/

  6. @ “(…) images of being dragged away by the authorities, and my Green friends and colleagues watching silently. (..)” What a good image/apt comparison! But was it justa nightmare? For many of us ( not only here in Germany) this was r e a l i t y (!) , in 2001/2002. And another thing: this right-left divide, who does it actually benefit? And how much longer do we need it, or how much longer will we fall for it? Isn’t it about something else? Namely , seeing through the pocket tricks of the powerful?

  7. @ “(…) images of being dragged away by the authorities, and my Green friends and colleagues watching silently. (..)” What a good image/apt comparison! – But was it just a nightmare? For many of us ( not only here in Germany) this was r e a l i t y , in 2001/2002. And another thing: this right-left divide, who does it actually benefit? And how much longer do we need it, how much longer will we fall for it? Isn’t it about something else? Namely , seeing through the pocket tricks of the powerful? If David’s “personal transformation process” is genuine, then I wholeheartedly welcome it. Thank you.

  8. Interesting thoughts, especially when its about the future of our society. Thank you! I think it’s absolutly OK to stay positive! But still, there’s not much reason for it, sorry. They’ve already given us so many hints about what humanity will look like soonwith all their Science fiction movies, like for example “Surrogates” (2009) Well, isnt it fabulous, Mr. Harari? A future where humanoid romote-controlled Robots will exercise Permaculture Design Courses? Perhaps we don’t deserve anything else, if we all continue to participate, with our half-heartedness and laziness, and our inability to acknowledge bitter truths and expose their lies.

    1. So true! I met a LGBTQI+ Permaculture surrogate the other day. Of course I knew they were all lying by the way they looked. You can tell who they are lying by their clothes. They were so bitter and should go back to where they came from. They steal all our land and truths and minds for their corrupt gains! Not to mention the Cultural Marxists who are the fake news Permacultural imposters. It is like Star Trek, with their virtue signalling Federation. We all know we need money and crypto now. Fake organic farming surrogates are to watch out for. Round them up! We need to weed out these lazy woke freeloaders and send them back to their failed nations. No one deserves our biodynamic sovereign! Freedom of Speech is supreme! Make Permaculture Great Again! USA! USA! Oi Oi Oi!

  9. @”Mass formation by well-intentioned do-gooders” ? That sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory. But I am grateful for the reference to the “Holmgren Human Wealth Director”. Finally, I know that it’s not all about money! And then I also discovered the australian “CERES_Community”, of which food production is only one part, and the energetic people who are involved and hold leadership positions there! Among them a former member of the World Bank NGO Committee and passionate supporter of the Melbourne football club, a treasurer with experience working for leading international financial services providers and consulting firms, and even a lady who acts as “One Young World”- Ambassador! No question about it, these are passionate professionals at work, you can see that right away. There are even donations in-kind from _Microsoft and _Google, which is an indication of the seriousness of their work, for sure. And fortunately the other chairpersons have considerable experience on the international stage too, either for the UN or for leading management consultancies. This is all so encouraging! As is the “One Young World” initative. They spread so much optimism – just look at the beaming faces on their webpage with the partners and prominent supporters. There is certainly no reason to be saddened, my dear permie friends. The banner of sustainability and permaculture will continue to be carried forward. And finally Douglas Adams was right when he said: “You can tune a guitar, but you can’t tuna fish. Unless of course, you play bass.”

    1. David Holmgren

      I detect a note of cynicism which I fully appreciate about the possibility of progressive activists being “useful idiots” in the service of forces not appreciated. At the same time, I have personally experienced lots of genuine passion, intelligence and good work (from my perspective) in the “CERES community” over the years along with a sprinkerling of opportunism, status ladder climbing and rigid ideology. But isn’t that range what we find in any organisation, network or movement depending on ones own perspective and beliefs

  10. Hi, I have just enrolled in David’s permaculture course so I thought to read some of his essays.
    I am a very mainstream person who has solar panels on my roof and was quite happy to be vaccinated during COVID. I found the essays a bit confusing and the comments even more so.
    I really just want to understand how to develop my garden and chooks so that I can be more sustainable ( this maybe a greenie word? ) as both give me a deeper connection to my “self” .
    Anyway hoping it’s going to be practical and not too theoretical.
    Regards,

    1. Hi Georgina,

      Beck Lowe here, I’m the facilitator and lead teacher with David on our online PDC. Someone has just drawn my attention to your comment, and I feel the need to respond.

      Good on you for reading the essays – it is good to get a feel for how David is thinking before the course starts. And it is good to expand your information sources to things you don’t necessarily agree with, even if you find them confusing. (And for the record, I find some of the comments on these essays very confusing!)

      Our Holmgren Design online PDC is more theoretical than some PDCs – but there are practical ideas too. And very little of the content David had written about in these essays forms part of the curriculum. But of course if someone asks a question on these topics, David will be happy to give his two cents worth!

      I want to be clear about what we’ll be doing in the online PDC so you can decide if it is the right course for you. We offer a theoretical framework for redesigning your life as well as the piece of land you may be stewarding. We look at permaculture in the wider sense of creating meaningful, resilient, sustainable lives – growing food is an important part of this, but it is just one piece of a larger jigsaw. It is tricky for us to give hard and fast rules about how people should manage their productive gardens, as everyone is working with different soils and climates in different bioregions, but we do offer overall principles that can form the basis of your own trials and experiments. And we talk about various animals – including chooks! But we also talk about many other aspects of a permaculture life such as: energy descent and its implications for the future; alternative views of economics, focused on the community and household; designing and retrofitting buildings; relationships with Indigenous stewards of land; and kitchen strategies for such things as bulk grains, making the most from harvests and preserving.

      I hope this helps. Please feel free to get in touch for a direct chat if you’d like.

      All the best, Beck

      1. Beck, how can you work with David when he comes out as an unhinged crackpot now? Do you teach how to be a Trump supporter in your courses? Or how to start an echo chamber? Isn’t this just a way for David to make more money? He doesn’t care about Permaculture principles anymore. He cares about cultural Marxists who control the weather, pushes anti-LGBTQI+ and other conspiracies.

        You can learn about chooks anywhere. YouTube is better than getting involved in this ‘movement’. David’s 2 cents worth is a betrayal of permaculture ethics, don’t be conned by this reactionary charlatan.

  11. Regarding this ‘Afterward’

    You complain about savage comments David.

    I assume you’re referring to my comments. So let me tell you this, my comments were designed with strategy, to be the same quality and character as your comments and your criticisms of the “woke” and the “cultural Marxists”, the nurses and doctors, the academics, the scientists, the modellers, the real workers doing real work for the community.

    Early on I could see that you were not engaging rationally. So I figured there was only one thing for it, change track. Play your game, even though it would be one of the most soul destroying experiences of my life.

    My intent was to hold a mirror to you David, and if you see savagery in that mirror, well then, my job here is done, and you see yourself.

  12. Dear David,

    Thank you for your thoughtful writing. I don’t agree with everything, and why should I? My ecological and personal context is different. I’m a tree adapted for where I grow and one that owes some gratitude to what you’ve shared.

    I’m one of the hapless weirdos who actually tries to live this stuff (in my context) and teaches and consults for a living. I know the perils of that path well. Besides being perpetually lean on money – which is itself a teaching experience – I face the constant paradoxes that can dynamically co-exist under the “P” word.

    At times, it’s driven me a little crazy. I was hit particularly hard by Dan Palmer’s death. I had just taken his Living Design Process course. I apply what he taught me in my own way constantly. And yet what he shared also shook my foundations quite a bit. I love and hate this about Permaculture. It’s not neat.

    Though good Permaculture design has a weedy elegance that I cherish, trying to figure out what this bundle of twigs I hold actually is can be a bit like whacking myself with a sheaf of Zen Koans while simultaneously coming up with as many uses for the paper as possible and lamenting that I am not writing on deer skin parchment I sustainably hunted myself, etc., etc….

    I write all this to say that your writing clarifies for me my own “branch” of Permaculture teaching. Without permission, I’ve “forked” it to have a lot more to do with faith and trust in the living power of the earth.

    The people I work with are mostly coming to me with a lot of alienation from what their ancestors knew. They don’t know how to grow food, use herbal medicine, build intelligently, or forage from the wild. The context of who has come to me and why is a local mirror showing me what Permaculture is right here, right where I am.

    For me, it’s less and less conceptual. I have a big brain sack that loves what you write, but the people I’m humbled to call my clients and students don’t really need that. They’re already smart. They’re already drowning in concepts and contradictions. There are no safe discussions on the fractious medium of the internet, in so much as we’d define safe as something not introducing further stress and discord. They’ve got discord down. What they need is soil, and smell, and wild water, and to do something real that is free from the constant dissection of allegiance and opinion.

    I’m working with them not as a 4th-generation farmer whose parents grew up handling axes and fermenting weird tubers, but as a kid raised on Atari and its progeny and who still has probably eaten more meals from the Golden Arches than from the black of the soil. I know what it’s like to know nothing, and I re-learn that every time I open my big mouth.

    The mirror of what Permaculture is to the people I meet shows me where to go next. I walk the edge of challenging people – for example, to love “invasive” plants, to try to give up a wasteful convenience, or to observe and support natural sequences of succession – while also trying to lower their stress and inner conflict, because they’ve got that in over abundance living plugged into this buzzing talked out world.

    Like most decent Permaculture teachers, I’ve considered giving up the “P” word. But Permaculture as a label is still a strange attractor. It has a scent. It brings together the most amazing people I’ve ever met. I can honestly say that my students and clients come from every demographic in our area. They’re all over the place, and it helps me love people to work with them.

    Where my emphasis might differ the most from what I think you’re saying, and where I honestly suspect Permaculture will, at least in some contexts, evolve into, is to have more to do with the human heart and the connection to Gaia and her plants.

    I’ve been thinking about who it is that ever really embraces anything like de—growth. Who doesn’t accept the trade of nature for ever ratcheting up industrial conveniences? It’s usually spiritual groups. The Amish, in my own ancestry and region. Some Buddhists, some Christians, some Muslims, and then a batch of us Permaculture weirdos who all live in a more loose patchwork of wild discipline, eating cookies on the weekends while living without refrigerators. And I like it that way.

    I love you for all you give, including your far seeing. It’s my humble opinion that you can chill out about things like gender, or woke, or whatever. Like, it doesn’t really hurt you or anyone if some people believe in more than two genders. It’s not actually threatening you. The internet amplifies threats to our minds. I’ve watched a lot of the writers I respect most get sucked into it as if these things were happening to them. But the Brett Weinsteins (or as I call him, Brett “Whine”stein because he whined and whined about what happened to him but it’s not really such a big deal) make careers out of being cancelled. And Gaia keeps growing plants. And maybe it doesn’t really matter that much.

    I know that you, like a lot of people I love, upset the apple carts. I’m a contrarian, too. But I also feel pretty sure that the biggest rebellion we could carry out as troublemakers would be to drop the whole conceptual game, get off of social media, and just work where we are with the dedicated land and irritating neighbors we’re blessed with. And of course, if we try to do that, we’ll encounter all kinds of impossible messes. And if we try to scale it, the messes will scale with us. And Gaia keeps growing plants.

    So this is my two cents as a 4th or 5th generation person wreckless enough to try to share this whole beautiful and necessary stinky bucket of life you’ve helped to cohere around the P word. The thing that I think will continue for me is to teach connection to water, air, earth, and life. The people I meet are like me in that we need something that smells real. A lot more of it. And we’re so aware of the gulf of amnesia of our ancestors, and we don’t know where to start. And we also don’t know that anything besides the industrial nightmare is possible.

    The discussions about renewables, nuclear fusion or not, giant global forces, weather manipulation, and all of it is something we really are not equipped to resolve. We can spend a thousand hours of our life force researching, but we’ll still never know anything for sure, and if we do know it, it’ll change immediately.

    All my friends into mainstream media are being manipulated, and all my friends into alternative media are being manipulated. And very little we read online makes us stronger, or wiser, or more loving. The only sane direction left to go is into the arms of the earth. I teach Permaculture as a way to do that without being completely cold, itchy, and hungry all the time. And I teach a “spiritual” Permaculture, knowing fully well the shards of glass that line that path, and the spiritual message is this: Gaia still grows plants. It’s been true through every empire and it’ll be true through the life and death of this one. There is something timeless you can lean on, and that’s land. The rest is inherently specious and supported by ads.

    Thank you, and please send money.
    -Matt

    1. …and not to be the person on the internet who replies to himself, but hey…. I also just want to make it clear I’m not trying to invalidate how it might have felt to have a lot of friends and colleagues distance themselves because of your views. That’s terrible and I hope humans learn another way. I appreciate this series you posted and I don’t know what other crazy job I’d be doing if you didn’t help get me into this earthy mess.

      And to wade into another topic, I never accepted Permaculture being cast as only repackaged indigenous knowledge. That indigenous sources informed and inform it still is clear, but I have always been able to see Permaculture’s unique contribution of a design system as something with its own energy and life that meets those of us who grew up in industrial abstraction where we’re at and helps us turn our blazing minds into something helpful. People throwing shade at Permaculture on the internet are (like most people throwing shade at anything) lacking a whole lot of context.

      Mostly, I’ve found the people I actually work with to have no problem accepting Permaculture for the help that it offers. They don’t expect it to be perfect. I’m grateful for all that it is and I’ll always be glad you shared what you shared.

      OK getting off the screen now

      1. Hi Matt, Like you I was devo when Dan took his life. But unlike you I found David’s Permaculture Design business model was yet another commodification of the lifeworld. I remember when Dan went to an angel investor (venture capitalist) who said you need a product/service to sell. I think that was the point Perma just felt like another form of capitalist exploitation. The early days of Veg was like an organic version of Bunnings, exploiting those that wanted to find good health and wellness in these little garden beds instead of taking pills, but without having to do any work.

        That’s when the mask finally fell off David’s business ideas. Permaculture was, and always has been a business model for those in the know. A pyramid scheme. David was always willing to be helpful when one was willing to pay, but when it came to sharing information without payment he would always say he was too busy. I never really understood why he wouldn’t share his time with me in voluntary exchanges of information until Dan co-started Veg. On the flip side David was happy to take my ideas and hard work and sell them in his courses. I remember asking him some important strategic questions, but unless the questions had $ attached he wouldn’t answer. When he couldn’t sell his services anymore he tried to sell conspiracies and clap trap.

        Is money the lifeblood of Gaia? Perhaps, but then if that’s the case what was Permaculture other than an Amway for landscape gardening: “Helping people live healthier, more empowered lives”? https://www.amway.com.au

        1. I’d also like to say to Matt Tracy, that was very well put. Sounds like you get it. The amazing thing about permaculture is that no one person controls it, and there should be no harm in calling out even the originator’s blind spots, in a gentle and loving way. We’re all teaching and learning from each other at the same time, in real time, this is uncharted territory.

        2. Sorry D.Merser, I meant to post that under Matt’s comment. I’m not good with computers.
          You’re a good writer. You make some valid points, but you might want to consider directing your life energy into something a little more productive than this. You’ve made your points. Now what? Life is too precious to waste it being mad at people on the internet, believe me I had my time, it gets you nowhere.
          What do you love to do that you’ve been putting off because of being caught up in all the noise? Go do that.
          I wish you some inner peace man, life is hard enough as it is, don’t make it harder on yourself.

      2. I’d also like to say to Matt Tracy, that was very well put. Sounds like you get it. The amazing thing about permaculture is that no one person controls it, and there should be no harm in calling out even the originator’s blind spots, in a gentle and loving way. We’re all teaching and learning from each other at the same time, in real time, this is uncharted territory.

    2. Thank you, Matt, very well put! I’m sure many of us feel the same way, including younger people who have studied David and Bill’s writings /ideas. In any case, enough nutritious humus has accumulated for all of us ;-), we can spread our roots there, and that’s wonderful, especially when you realize that you can coexist with this earth completely without ideologies, hypocritical politicians and paternalism, isnt it? 😉 Good to see, that there are still so many wonderful self-thinking human beings who practice Permaculture and try to live in harmony with nature! When I read your comment I was reminded of a filmKirstenDirksen published about a Frenchman named Mathieu some weeks ago, on that wellknownvideo platform (YT). If you still have your digital device and an ad blocker, it might be interesting (?)The title is “Quitting 9-to-5 to build genius off-grid homestead (…)” What a beautiful example, what a wonderful fruit from this tree that David and Bill once planted … ! 😉

      1. Kirsten Dirksen’s youtube channel is an amazing documentation of people talking positive action in their own backyards. I always leave her videos feeling inspired, not drained like most of the content on youtube these days.

  13. Everyone, David included, should read, “Beware of ‘anti-woke’ liberals: they attacked the left and helped Trump win” by Jan-Werner Müller, professor of politics at Princeton University.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/feb/03/anti-woke-liberals-helped-trump-win

    “… a mere 12 months ago, plenty of pundits (and politicians, for that matter) were instructing us to accept that a global “vibe shift” in favor of the right had taken place.”

    “Consultant and political communications specialist Aaron Huertas coined the expression “reactionary centrism” in 2018. The basic idea is that self-declared moderates claim equally to oppose extremes on the right and on the left – but hard-hitting criticism is reserved almost exclusively for the left (partly, perhaps, because the presumed audience is expected to already know how bad things are on the right).

    This perceptive observation was inadvertently vindicated in thousands of columns that contributed to a moral panic about “wokeness” and “identity politics”. It convinced readers that, sure, Trump was horrible, but what was happening “on campus” (translation: anecdotes from one or two elite places, endlessly recycled) was also putting US democracy in peril.”

    Müller concludes that in a deeply asymmetrical political landscape, seeking a “middle” between democratic norms and authoritarianism is not “reasonable”—it is a path to the destruction of democracy. He warns that as the US moves past the Trump era, these “reactionary background singers”, and we can include David among their number, will likely return to obstruct necessary radical reforms by preaching a false sense of balance.

    Bye bye Reactionary Permaculture,

  14. Though these essays and comments get increasingly complex, the solutions remain embarrassingly simple…

    From one pedantic, over-thinking, hypocritical human doing their best to navigate the messy world we’ve all been born into, to every other who managed to make it to the end of this essay and is still with us…Breathe. (I know that sounds condescending…just do it anyway, or don’t, up to you)

    We all know the pattern of war well enough by now, from the comment section of an obscure blog, to what’s been going on in the news the past few days, which is just a continuation of what’s been going on forever.

    I know old Bill wasn’t perfect, and he certainly wasn’t a guru. I fell into that trap a little at one point myself, but I look at him now along the same lines as Alan Watts referred to himself, as a “philosophical entertainer”. Bill was an ecological entertainer, and for whatever he was or he wasn’t, the man had some gems of wisdom, to quote:

    “Choose your friends from people who you like what they do – even though you mightn’t like what they say.”

    “Stupidity is an attempt to iron out all differences, and not to use them or value them creatively.”

    “We have to let nature put what’s left together, and see what it can come up with to save our ass.”

    “The worst thing about permaculture is that it’s extremely successful, but it has no center, and no hierarchy.”

    “What the designer has to do is look at the relationships.”

    “You can’t cooperate by knocking something about or bossing it or forcing it to do things.”

    “Anyone who ever studied mankind by listening to them was self-deluded. The first thing they should have done was to answer the question, “Can they report to you correctly on their behavior?” And the answer is, “No, the poor bastards cannot.””

    “There is no more time-wasting process than that of believing people will act, and then finding that they will not.”

    “Permaculture is something with a million heads. It’s a way of thinking which is already loose, and you can’t put a way of thinking back in the box.”

    “If you let the world roll on the way it’s rolling, you’re voting for death. I’m not voting for death.”

    “If people want some guidance, I say, just look at what people really do. Don’t listen to them that much.”

    “Most biologists, (says Vogel, 1981) seem to have heard of the boundary layer, but they have a fuzzy notion that it is a discrete region, rather than the discrete notion that it is a fuzzy region.”

    “Humans were my study animal now – I set up night watches on them, and I made phonograms of the noises they make. I studied their cries, and their contact calls, and their alarm signals. I never listened to what they were saying – I watched what they were doing, which is really the exact opposite of the Freuds and Jungs and Adlers.”

    “I’m certain I don’t know what permaculture is. That’s what I like about it – it’s not dogmatic. But you’ve got to say it’s about the only organized system of design that ever was. And that makes it extremely eerie.”

    “You can hit a nail on the head, or cause a machine to do so, and get a fairly predictable result. Hit a dog on the head, and it will either dodge, bite back, or die, but it will never again react in the same way. We can predict only those things we set up to be predictable, not what we encounter in the real world of living and reactive processes.”

    “I could never teach people to be philosophers – and if I did, you could never make a gardener out of them.”

    End of quotes

    I love you David, you’ve been a huge inspiration in my life, and while I agree with a lot of what you say, and even experienced much of the same disillusionment in the past few years, especially during covid, and fell into the same traps; the right leaning talking points are bleeding into your language and thought patterns and blinding you to the original ethos of permaculture.
    I know this only because I’ve had to do my own soul searching to navigate through this, and I can’t even say I’m all the way there, wherever “there” is.

    A tree doesn’t care if you have a dick and balls or a pussy, or neither, or what you like to call yourself, neither will the future generations who sit under that tree, they will just be grateful to have trees to sit under and eat from.
    We just had a school shooting here in Canada, and all the talk is either the right saying it’s all the trans people!, or the left saying it’s the guns! Maybe it’s neither, maybe its us vs them reaching its inevitable conclusion.

    Being so sure that vaccines are harming people that you’re willing to alienate the vast majority that would agree with you on just about everything else you say but that, is counterproductive at best.
    I didn’t get it, I know many who did. They are all walking around, living their lives for the most part. The ones I know that are sick or have died, I have no way of knowing what took them out, life will kill you if you let it.

    I don’t think they were as bad or as good as they where made out to be, thankfully for us all. Life goes on, I refuse to turn that whole thing into another us vs them; these are my family, my friends, my neighbours. We all did our best during that time, it was a fucking shit show and nobody had the map. Do I feel angry about how it all went down, yes. I’m trying with all my will to alchemise that anger into compassion, it takes just about everything I have in me, but I’m doing it.

    This Merser person definitely seems to have something personal against you, and could maybe be a little more kind with their words, but it seems to be stemming somewhat from feedback not being taken into consideration (a big part of principle #4). There is a little truth to some (not all) of the things they’ve said, packaged in a whole lot of anger that is not anything to do with you.

    I’m only calling you out because I have gone down the same road and didn’t see my blind spots. It’s really taken this “new” war to really shake me out of it. Life is short in the best of times. Probably the best thing all of us could do (myself very much included), is spend less time thinking and arguing about the many things we disagree about, and more time finding the common ground, even if it’s a painful process, and it will be.
    It likely doesn’t happen on the internet, although it’s important to use it while its still somewhat of a free place to express ideas. It happens face to face, person to person.

    Please don’t take this as me shitting on you like all the others who just want to pick people apart. I know you advocate for this as well, maybe more than others in all honesty, but still. There were times in reading your essays where I thought to myself, “there’s really no need to go there”.
    I’m all for freedom of expression, I think it’s maybe the most important thing we have, but sometimes it’s better to just talk about the weather..On second thought, maybe not the weather(climate change) maybe just trees (just not in a logging town).. maybe hockey (I don’t like hockey, I’m surprised they still let me live in Canada). Maybe singing while we work instead, if we can all agree on a song. If not, the birds know some good ones (too bad they’re not real).

    Mark

  15. I’d also like to say to Matt Tracy, that was very well put. Sounds like you get it. The amazing thing about permaculture is that no one person controls it, and there should be no harm in calling out even the originator’s blind spots, in a gentle and loving way. We’re all teaching and learning from each other at the same time, in real time, this is uncharted territory.

  16. David,

    Just another thought. You’ve always been known as the “future scenarios” guy. I don’t know if it’s a role you took on yourself, or something you’ve fallen into over the years, but it’s an awful lot of pressure to put on yourself Man. You’ve done some amazing, valuable work, but I’ll most remember you as the guy who quietly put his blood, sweat and tears where his mouth is, while Bill went off gallivanting around the globe spreading permaculture far and wide. Both paths we’re equally valuable in their own ways, but to me, your boots on the ground efforts resonated with me much more than any of your academic heavy future scenarios work. The basic premise of the permaculture concept is based on the idea that we all know the world is going to shit, in one way or another, and the more time we spend dwelling on the details of that, the more we destract ourselves from action we could be taking.

    I am the biggest hypocrite in all of this. I’ve wasted years, decades of my life after taking my PDC focusing on the problems instead of the solutions. Type 1 error written all over it. Live and learn I guess. I hit the bottom with all that a few years ago, and I’m lucky to still be here. The old system has a sneeky way of sucking you back in with its tricks.

    That’s why it alway bring me comfort to go back to the old permacuture stuff written by you and Bill. Back when you were both bright eyed and bushy tailed, or in Mollison’s case, at least a funny curmudgeon and not just a cynical one like in some of his last interviews. This life will beat you down if you let it. Permaculture is seriously one of the only things that has ever given me hope for a more sane future, and made me want to stick around to see how it all plays out. Maybe I won’t see meaningful change in my lifetime, thought I haven’t rule it out.

    Trees don’t care about time like we do, and future humans, civilization or no, will need food, so I feel like in this last half (if I’m lucky) of my life, I’d just like to plant some trees and let everything else go.
    I hope you can give yourself permission to do the same. You’ve done your work my friend, and if enough of us do that, we’ll have the whole world covered.

  17. Dan Palmers suicide rocked me. I didn’t know the guy personally, but it was around the same time I was really struggling with my own mental health.
    Podcasts were something that got me through hard times because I lived in a rural area, far away from like-minded people.
    His ideas and enthusiasm were contagious, and just like that..he was gone. Brutal.

    Thankfully his words and recordings are left for us, but what a shame such a bright light was smashed like that.
    No idea the reasons why, and honestly I don’t need or want to know. I know how dark it can get in a mind that’s always searching for answers to unsolvable questions. I just wish the guy knew he wasn’t alone.
    I know he was a friend of yours. That had to be hard to take.
    I think to honour his legacy, all of us getting out of our heads a little more, and into our bodies and our hearts would go a long way to making permaculture stronger, like he wanted so badly but never got to see.

  18. David,

    I don’t know if you’ll ever read or respond to any of these, but please know that they all come from a place of love, but combined with frustration over how divided everyone seems to be becoming over every single small detail of life.
    Maybe I’m just naive, and it’s always been this way, and we’ve just never had the means to express ourselves so freely before this, but something just seems off.

    Permaculture has been my anchor in the storm of all this throughout the decades of my 20’s and 30’s, and heading into half-time.
    It’s literally the only thing that gave me the smallest amount of hope that there is anything we can do to change course. And it’s exactly because there was never any politics or religion involved.
    Obviously we live in a world where those things are inescapable, it’s just part of being human, but permaculture was a place to go to get away from all that. Maybe that’s me projecting my own ideas of what I think it should be, but I don’t think so.
    I believe your work on “future scenarios”, while extremely interesting and helpful in certain contexts, is outside of what permaculture was truly meant to be about.
    Again, I fully admit I could be completely wrong on this, and also realize that maybe this is just you being you, and using permaculture in what YOU do, like it was intened.
    I would just like to know though, does it burden you?
    It seems like you really have your shit together, and can walk your talk better than almost anyone on the planet, but at the same time, it’s gotta be a heavy mental load to bare, trying to dissect the minutia of human culture and experience and predict the outcomes in the short to medium term. You only have to look to the events of the past few days to see how quickly it can all get turned on it’s head.
    Have you ever been able to shut off your brain from thinking about all that, or is it just the way you are wired? I only ask because I feel like that myself, and the more I think, the more it gets me in trouble.
    I just wonder what a radical letting go of all future “what if’s”, and a redirection of that massive amount of mental energy into the present moment would actually look like. Not just for you, but for all of us.
    It seems as though all roads lead to your earth stewards scenario eventually, even lifeboat I would argue in the long run, so what if an intentional self-delusion into only focusing on that scenario and giving up trying to predict how it all plays out in the short and medium term were actually a strategy to overcome the burden and burnout all of us (im sure yourself included, at least a little) are feeling at this moment in history.
    Energy is limited right? There is only a certain amount in circulation at any given time, and a massive amount of our collective conscious energy, to get a little woo woo, is being eaten up right now with the mental games of future geopolitical and ideological predictions.

    Does that make any sense at all? Sorry I’m not able to articulate myself as well as I’d like, it’s sort of a fuzzy idea to me as well, more of just a gut feeling that we are missing the forest for the trees, and it may actually be pushing away the very people we need for this to work, which is everyone.

    I know you are a busy guy, but any thoughts or feedback would be really helpful, I feel like I’m adrift in a sea of uncertainty right now, with my anchor just keeping hold. I need to know that the things I’ve put my faith in are still solid enough to hold onto as this life inevitably get more and more unpredictable.

    Mark

  19. I’m sorry for the multiple posts under this essay, David, but my thoughts come in waves, and this seems like the logical place to leave them in hopes you might actually read and respond to them, rather than have them scattered all over the place.

    I don’t want to be just another person yelling into the void of the internet. I would seriously value a dialogue, and more than that, I would welcome with open arms the idea of you picking out my own blind spots and contradictions in the things I have written here so far, of which I’m positive there are many.
    I have very few people in my life to bounce ideas off unfortunately. Most people’s eyes glaze over when things like this are brought up.
    Rural Canada is full of the people you describe in your essays, the people who stuck by you when the left all but abandoned you because of your views. They are my friends and my family and I love them to pieces and would lay down my life for them, but if I start talking about anything too deep I get a pretty quick “fuck off”. And honestly, I feel more and more inclined to agree with them. Even with all their many, many struggles, they seem happier than me most times. There’s an acceptance of what is, and an ability to enjoy the moment for what it is that I find lacking in people like myself and those I know who spend a little too much time thinking and questioning everything.

    I never once thought to myself though, that I shouldn’t be writing this. The main attraction to me about permaculture is that everyone is on the same playing field. I would have loved to have gotten a chance to talk to Bill. He reminded me so much of people from my own homeland, salty old fisherman types who have no problem telling you to your face how it is, but also never put on a facade for anyone, what you see is what you get. He likely would have laughed at a lot of my questions, and maybe even told me to “fuck off”. I’d love nothing more.

    I don’t respect you because of hierarchy, i respect you for what you’ve done, but you’re still a flawed human being like the rest of us. All my heroes are dead, in the sense that I see everyone for who they are now, little babies who grew up with trauma of some sort or another which locked them into a pattern of being. It’s both scary and liberating not having a father figure to rely on to know what’s best. There’s a reason this war has gotten to the point it has, everyone secretly wants a Daddy, of course they do.

    There’s few things that bring me comfort these days, and I guess that’s part of waking up to the reality of the situation we’re in, and realizing nobody is driving the car.
    The one thing I keep coming back to is the “Old Man planting trees in the shade he will never sit” idea. It’s something real and tangible, yet enduring long after the sweet relief of death turns me into maggots, as Bill might say, and soil, and eventually into those very same trees.
    That’s all I’ve got to hold onto, but I think it’s enough, if I can just learn to let the rest go.
    Thanks for co-creating the system that’s helped me to see that, and continuing to co-evolve it with all of us who are still here floating on the tiny p-shaped life raft next to the green-washed Titanic trying not to get pulled down with it.

    Mark

    1. Mark,
      I do read all the comments and if I have the urge and brain space do reply when I can. I appreciate the your effort to articulate your thoughts, feelings, critiques and questions around these writings, my future scenarios work and permaculture more generally. I will think further and attempt a reply that hopefully will be useful to you and other readers.

  20. Thank you, David.
    I don’t claim to have read all of your writings by any means, you are very prolific, and I just don’t have the capacity to digest that much material, I feel like my head is about to explode as it is with all the info we are bombarded with these days, from all directions.
    I may have missed some things, and you may have already addressed many of my thoughts and feelings.

    I do however feel like a have a good sense of patterns, and I seem to have developed this sort of hyper-sensitivity from over-stimulation to the content I take in, and there are certain “trigger” words, for lack of a less charged word to use these days, that almost make me shut off to everything else a person has to say because I’m so sick of them being used as subtle weapons to fuel endless division. I’m going to be transparent about this and show you the two examples that gave me the impulse to write all this to you to begin with.

    “I still am shocked by how many capable, well-educated and younger people have been seriously injured or died as a result of the Covid vaxes and still they and/or their families believe it would have been worse without the vax. This reminds me of the mentality that led to the Jonestown cult mass death where well-meaning and educated folk came to actions against all human instinct.”

    Regardless if any of this is true or not, and it’s really hard to prove either way, it doesn’t help any reader who did happen to get a vaccine feel good about anything you have to say. I read an example in the comments section of this very artice where someone was interested in working with you but was question if it was a good idea because you were talking about this kind of stuff. She just wanted to learn about permaculture.

    “Just as the radical thinker Ivan Illich said of the ambiguous complementarity between the (two) genders”

    Again, the underlying message of the use of the bracketed (two), which I assume was your own personal addition to the quote (I could be wrong) will trigger anyone who is interested in permaculture, but finds out that you are one of the main people involved in bringing the system to life to just shut off if they just so happen to not fit into the two gender idea for whatever reason. You had a person so excited about making the world a better place, and has come to the one place where none of that should matter, cause dicks and vaginas don’t plant trees, people do, and you lost them over an issue that will not matter in the grand scheme of things.

    All this does is turn them away, further disillusion and radicalize people, and steer them in the direction of doubling down on the idea that everyone is different, and into the arms of people and corporations only too happy to exploit that for all it’s worth, when they could have been learning to designing novel ecosysems to help steward humanity through the hard times ahead.

    That was my initial reason for writing you, the rest just came pouring out in a stream of consciousness that I wasn’t really in control of, it just started flowing.

    Thank you for acknowledging me though, it feels good to be seen and heard. Take your time with any reply, I know it can be hard to fully digest something and then come up with a response in a way that comes off in reading the same way it feels in your head, it’s a difficult thing, it’s so easy to misinterpret text.

    Mark

  21. I guess maybe the core that I come to with all my thinking on what’s going on in the world now as it relates to permaculture, is this:
    Have we become so fractured as a society into camps of either left or right ideology at this point that the only way to live is to strategically choose a side to align with just to survive what’s coming?

    That’s not a world I want to live in, but it’s a strategy I see a lot of people taking, either consciously or unconsciously. And maybe it IS the only way to survive, maybe I’m too idealistic and naive. The one’s who survived the most atrocious events in history generally weren’t the ones who opened their mouths, or the ones who didn’t choose a side.

    Does the person who walks in the middle of the road really get hit from both sides, or does it actually cause the traffic to stop? Maybe both. Likely it’s better to get the fuck off the road and take the meandering dirt path instead, and that’s what permaculture has always been to me.

    Is there room for that? I don’t know, and maybe I’ll go down as just another foolish martyr, but I feel like just short circuiting every single political, religious or even cultural conversation and argument at this point in my life with “let’s not even agree to disagree, but can we at least fight while we’re planting trees?”. Maybe that’s the best we can do.

  22. Why is it easier to drop bombs than to plant trees?

    They are both explosion events, they share the exact same pattern, just one happens a lot quicker than the other, and has the opposite result.

    We also confuse the results of one for the other. We want freedom so we drop bombs, and planting trees is looked at as a childish notion for creating real change.

    I know you see this, but why is it so hard for the majority to accept when it seems so obvious?

    I know these are existential questions, I don’t expect answers, it’s just extremely frustrating, and not for the reasons you’d think. It’s frustrating cause I already know them. The problem is the solution. The problem being thinking, the solution being doing.
    I also want to drop a bomb on the problem to fix it, it’s hard work planting trees! and you may never live to see the results of your efforts. My ego doesn’t like that very much. I want to fix this NOW, and I want to be known as someone who helped fix this.

    I know I quote a lot of quotes, but they help me frame things in my mind; and maybe in the reverse of Bill’s advice to choose people for what they do, not what they say, for quotes I prefer Richard Bach’s line of “I’ll quote the truth wherever I find it, thank you.”, and will close with a quote from Truman “It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.”

  23. The full Richard Bach quote is actually so much more relevant, I’ve never actually read the book but I’m going to now.

    “There is no problem so big that it cannot be run away from.”…
    “You’re quoting Snoopy the dog, I believe?”
    “I’ll quote the truth wherever I find it thank you.”

    Thanks for listening to me, David. I’m gonna shut up for a while now, I don’t want to bombard you with my random thoughts and dilute what I’ve already tried my best to articulate.

    1. Mark, you noted that a tree doesn’t care about one’s genitals, and that future gender diverse generations will just be grateful for the shade. It’s a good point, thank you for making it. On a purely biological level, you are right. But let me add to this issue by saying permaculture is not just biology; it is a design system for human settlements which integrates trees into the design.

      Trees don’t care about politics, but human ecosystems do. I think the real question here is whether the vaccinated person, the LGBTQI+ person, or the supposed “Cultural Marxist” is allowed to sit under that tree if it is located on the private property of David’s Melliodora holding? Right? If I’m a “Cultural Marxist” does permaculture “close the gate”, but it opens the gate if I have sufficient $ to pay for a design course?

      We pretend we can separate ecology from sociology, but we live in a capitalist system, and permaculture is a participant in it. Aligning yourself with permaculture doesn’t mean you stop paying rent, council rates, or suddenly get free land with abundant fruit trees. Dan Palmer found this out the hard way when his group permablitzed the backyard of a rental property, only for the landlord to turn around and kick the tenants out. You cannot design a resilient food forest while ignoring the power structures, property rights, and economic realities governing the land it grows on.

      As I’ve pointed out often here, the financial reality of the movement itself is founded on Permaculture education, PDCs, books, and events are livelihoods. This creates a perverse financial incentive to maintain a “broad tent” of consumers. When disagreements about fundamental human rights are treated as mere “differences of opinion,” it is rarely out of a noble commitment to free speech. It is a calculated business decision to avoid alienating a paying demographic. I experienced this firsthand right here when my comments pointing out the exclusionary implications of David’s views were quietly scrubbed from this blog. Protecting the cashflow trumps free open critical discussion.

      I used to think there was just a passive tolerance of bad ideas in Permaculture. But it’s more than that. When David Holmgren deliberately goes to a far-right rally to hand out permaculture pamphlets, that is not a passive failure of boundaries. That is an active invitation and if you invite explicitly authoritarian currents into the camp hoping the ethics of permaculture will somehow transform them, you are playing a dangerous game. Do you want permaculture to inoculate the ultra violence of these people, or do you want them to be the strong moral leadership of Permaculture for the next generation to stand against the woke?

      As I pointed out previously, history offers a terrifying parallel. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the German Lebensreform (life-reform) movement championed organic farming, alternative medicine, and a return to nature. It was, on its face, a decentralized movement focused on “health” and “earth care.” But, I hazard, because it lacked a shared political immune system, it was easily co-opted. The language of “natural order” and “purity” was seamlessly twisted into “blood and soil.” The desire to weed out the invasive plants morphed into the desire to weed out “unfit” woke human beings. This hippy idea of Ecology without a rigorous, anti-authoritarian ethic is just a waiting room for eco-fascism which is a well-worn argument.

      I genuinely thought “people care” meant a sociology of compassion and was the backbone of Permaculture. Trying to understand the contexts that shape people, and creating space where even those who feel brutalised by the world could come to the table. And I have tried to extend that compassion. But there is a hard limit. Supporting far-right discourse and the Trump program does not heal society, it actively normalises the suffering of the innocent out-group. We have to be clear about who actually deserves our protection. Fascists are not innocent. The girls who know no better—like those killed in the recent US and Israeli bombings in Iran—are innocent. When the ideology being welcomed into permaculture aligns with forces that support that kind of slaughter, that is where my compassion ends. You cannot claim to care for humanity while making space for the Trumpist politics of annihilation.

      My anger isn’t because the “old permaculture” was good and the “new permaculture” is bad. My anger comes from the realisation that the structural and political psychology I believed in was never actually there. The vulnerability was baked in from day one. The marketing of “care for the earth and care for people” did not mean what I thought it meant, and I invested a lot of my time and my life into an illusion.

      Permaculture is too fundamentally damaged by this lack of an ideological immune system, and IMHO David’s recent writings prove it cannot be salvaged as a coherent movement. People will have to find their own way forward outside of it of course. I offer these final thoughts not to change your mind Mark, but as a warning to anyone else considering this path. Look closely at who owns the land, who is invited into the garden, and who is being quietly locked out in the spineless interest of cashflow. GLTA

      1. Yes, you’re right in that it’s a design system for Human settlements, and I’m vastly oversimplifying it by just sticking to trees and not including human nature into the mix. I almost feel like that’s the point I’m getting at though.
        The trees are our only teachers. This is a design system created by two very smart, but flawed like the rest of us human beings in the 70’s. To expect them to have solved all the worlds problems, or have even come close would be turning this into a religion and them gurus.
        That said, they were definitely onto something, and were some of the first people to ever really try to articulate it in a way that was accessible to the average person.

        We have to think about where we came from, if you are to believe history as it is recorded anyway, which is up for debate, but you know, we need something to go on.
        So we’ve been anatomically homo-sapien for 200,000 years give or take. In that time we spread across the planet and became the dominate species in every niche imaginable. We formed cultures and language and myths based around our specific geograpical locations, and made up stories to tell ourselves to try to understand how we got here. Once we developed the ability to think about those things, which seems to be unique among all the species besides maybe the other homos, including dolphins and other higher-order big brained animals (although I do wonder if those animals, like dolphins are not just so smart that they keep their damn mouths shut and swim around in their undersea world like little buddas, knowing everything is perfect how it is, even us, but that’s a whole other can of worms!)
        So assuming we are the only ones who have a concept of past and future, we needed to develop these stories in order not to go crazy, cause this universe is way too big and complicated for us to ever understand.
        So we get tribes. Then one day that tribe comes across another tribe, having evolved in a different area with different origin stories, and due to shifting climactic patterns, needed to find new land to hunt and forage on.

        Well, you can’t have two conflicting origin stories, cause that causes the whole thing to fall apart, and then we are left with the vastness of the universe to ponder again. Much easier to just kill those people, wipe them out completely, or become so protective of your own little spot of earth that nobody dare come near you, out of sight out of mind.

        That worked for a long, long time. Population was small, resources were plentiful, but tribes still found time to raid, kill, take slaves, etc, even back then, along with developing trade routes, and limited exchange of cultural practices, tools etc, as long as it didn’t interfere with their overall origin myth.
        Some of these cultures got creative and started experimenting with agriculture for whatever reason, maybe at first in an attempt to avoid having to move from land they loved and encroach on other tribes, maybe they ate some mushrooms and had a vision, who the fuck knows, there is a lot of good guesses in all this stuff, but its mostly all speculation, you would have had to be there.
        So then you get surplus, and from surplus you need someone to guard said surplus, and you need to develop an economic system around that to keep people under control. Once that system of hierarchy is established it allows the organization of large military forces, which are able to, and out of necessity due to the flawed nature of annual agriculture and growing population density, almost forced into spreading outwards to claim new land.

        Obviously the small tribal society’s all over the world were no match for this kind of concentrated force (though many put up a damn good fight), so you get an inevitable domination of almost all of them over the centuries, and the ones at are left are only let be because they have not yet gotten in the way of something one of these global super powers wants.
        Doesn’t matter if it’s large scale capitalism, or communism or whatever other “ism” you want to try, seems like all large-scale society exploits certain groups at the expense of others, and offer a certain false sense of freedom in exchange for unquestioned loyalty to the system itself.
        Which sort of brings us to the present day, obviously leaving out a shit load of important events along the way.
        But say it brings us up to the 1970’s, when the world is getting it’s first real taste of the shaky grounds of the modern capitalist system that always seemed to bounce back from everything thrown at it, at least in the sense that we were finally “allowed” the freedom to question it, in democratic societies at least. That, coupled with ever more circulation of people and as a result, information which up until then was limited, lead to a lot of questions and experimentation. The drugs didn’t hurt either…

        In comes a couple blokes from down under who are two of many people at that time tossing around ideas of how we might do things differently. Laughed at, mocked, criticized I’m sure, bunch of idealistic dirty hippies I can hear em’ say. The “woke” people of their day.
        They could have done what most hippies did back then. Smoke a lot of weed and do a whole lot of nothing, same as many of us do now. But they had the spark of an idea, where it came from, who had it first, only those two know and one of em’s dead. Was it a combination of a lot of different ideas? Of course, like everything else, human history stands on the shoulder of giants.
        One thing is for sure though, they slapped a name on it and started putting it out there. it’s almost as if when we put a name on something, it automatically opens it up to dualism, and dooms it to failure. Be it tribes naming the gods, or David and Bill naming permaculture.. You might even notice that I rarely capitalize the p in permacuture in writing about it, I do this on purpose in a subtle way of deemphasizing it, making it less of a god, in my mind anyway.

        What I’m getting at, and what I gather from your comment, Merser, is that you feel that it’s just human nature to be like this about everything, and it’s hard not to disagree if you look back throughout history.
        I’d really like to think we have some free will though, our ability to think and label things being both our biggest blessing and biggest curse. Maybe the word permacuture is irredeemably broken, just like every other word-god we’ve brought into the world to try to understand things better, I don’t know.
        But like all other words, they meant something at one time in history, and planted a seed of change in the minds of millions. That’s gotta be worth something. David is a human, he’s also a human that’s getting older, and that changes our outlook in ways we can’t understand until we live it, just like all the other unteachable lessons in life, like heartbreak.
        They say we get wiser as we get older, and for sure we do in some ways, but we also ossify in our thinking and beliefs. We have a hard time understanding the young generation, and cling to our ideas of what we think was the “good ol’ days”. We all do this, and to say we don’t would be disingenuous.

        I can’t say I understand the whole gender diversity idea completely. I grew up before it was so commonplace. But I do accept that it’s a real thing that people feel. I myself feel like I’m a pretty feminine man in comparison to most, or at least the stereotype. But maybe a feminine man is just a man who allows himself to have feelings, what do I know though? These things are so complicated, and labels both help and hurt. I refuse to dehumanize anyone at this point in my life though, at least not intentionally.
        I also didn’t get a covid vaccine, but I cut my foot on a sketchy pond bottom while swimming during the late stages of the lock-downs, and sure as hell went and got myself a tetanus shot. I also spent that whole time trying to deescalate the tension between friends and family and those online who were dividing into factions over it, and sent myself into a depression spiral that almost drove me to end my life over the futility of it.

        I’m not willing to dehumanize people over any of it anymore, but I think we all need to learn to meet each other half way a little more too, and not be so reactionary. Try to understand each other a little more, and how we got to the views we hold so dear.

        There’s an old saying that if you’re not a liberal when you’re young you have no heart, and if you’re not a conservative when you’re old you have no mind. I like to add that if you’re not disillusioned with the whole idea of dualism at the end of it all, you’ve got no soul.

        Bill was right though, if we lose the forests we lose our only teachers.
        Trees have been just sitting there, patiently watching civilizations come and go, people killing and eating and fucking and killing and eating and fucking, waiting for us to chill out a little bit and realize all the rest of nature got it right. They’ve been so patient with us, benevolently letting us cut them down till almost the last of the ancient giants is gone, and still they understand, it’s not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.
        Those big trees will be here again, either with or without us. They don’t live in our concepts of time. If it takes a few thousand years and a new ice age, all good, they’ll be waiting, like the have many times before, and will evolve and adapt to the new conditions, Carlin was right..

        You might call that anthropomorphizing, but honestly, Look at a giant western red cedar, or and ancient knarled pine of the top of a windswept hill and tell me those things don’t have intelligence! You can feel it, and maybe that’s their language.
        Why would we expect such an ancient being to have such a primitive language as the glorified grunts we use to speak with each other, or the little squiggly shapes created and cut down old growth forests to write on so we can pass them around to each other, when we’re not wiping our asses with them. They’ve been SO patient!

        I think when and if we finally learn to stop labelling everything and trying pick apart everything in an attempt to understand it, and just be with it, giving the gift of our presence, be that a “cultural marxist” planting trees with a “christian capitalist” or whatever other polar-opposite overlay we want to use over two human souls, maybe we will finally stop blowing each other up, both with our words and with our bombs.

        The map is not the territory, and a human is not their culture, religion or ideology. These are just overlays, to use a mapping analogy. They were just things we needed at one time to get to where we are right now. We don’t really need them anymore though, I just hope enough of us realize that before someone presses the big red reset button, and humanity has to do this all over again from the stone age.
        There is a reason the tree shape is the core model in permaculture, and a reason ol’ Bill spoke in stories and parables like an old monk or something the older he got. I like to think he started to understand these things the closer he got to death, and got the last word in. “If you hear that I’ve died, tell them they lie!”

      2. It really sucks that we live in the society we do in a lot of ways, but we also live at a time in history, maybe one of the only times, where the freedom to criticize it is not met with immediate censorship or death, at least here, and at least for now.
        What a glorious time to be alive, to witness all this, if nothing else you can say, we live in interesting times…that old Chinese curse made up by an Englishman. Interesting times.

        I have no idea of David’s intentions, and for all your speculation, and some valid arguments on their face, you really don’t know the guy, nor does he know you, or you me, etc.

        Life is fuckin’ complicated. We all need money, unfortunately. I’ve lived my life in a way where following my morals and ethics has lead me to be very poor financially, and it’s not very fun sometimes, at all.
        I’ve also felt the soul crushing slow death of working many jobs I’ve hated and knew went against my beliefs, just to get by, like almost everyone else is somewhat forced to do in the current system we live in.

        David handing out pamphlets at a far-right rally as you say, again words are strong, cause I know a lot of people on the right who call anything remotely left leaning a “far-left” rally, and every liberal a “woke cultural marxist”, so given than benefit of the doubt, I don’t know the situation, but even still, say it was even. Maybe it’s not so black and white.

        Someones presence at an event doesn’t mean they align with the thinking of the group. Just like many of the people who flew to Epstein’s Island, or a Diddy Party, likely didn’t know what they were getting themselves into. Sometimes you’re invited to a party and you get there and it turns out everyone is doing something you’re not into, and you leave.
        Sometimes it takes a while to find that stuff out, cause most people seem cool, and everything seems normal till the baby oil and the cameras come out. Controversial example I know, but it’s to prove a point.

        Have you ever been misunderstood? I’m sure. Have you ever been labelled something you know in your heart not to be true, and tried in vain to change the mind of the other person only to realize they already have their mind made up about you so it’s easier to just write you off?
        It’s an impossible position to be in, to be the “figurehead” of anything. I don’t think David really wants to be, but it’s sort of just how we’re programmed to think. You create something, you own it and you represent it.

        And I agree that permaculture can come off as a bit of Amway like multi-level marketing scheme in some ways, the analogy is not lost on me. I’ve witnessed many people in my life become sucked into those things, and I’m kinda hyper aware of it because of that, so you’re not alone in having those thoughts at certain points.
        To me it was always supposed to be a transition technique though. Use the system to get out of the system. Funnel money into earthworks, trees, education dissemination, etc. And I think it’s been successful in that to a degree.
        Like I said, everyone needs to eat, and right lively-hood at this point in history kinda still means we have to have a foot in both worlds. It’s not ideal, but we don’t live in anywhere near a utopia, and likely never will. I would rather see you make money teaching a permaculture course, and activating the minds of future generations very willing to throw their money at something real for their future and not just another soul sucking smart phone or factory-farmed happy meal, then to take a job you hate just to get by, or even live like a pauper and waste your life’s potential.

        It’s not perfect, but perfect is the enemy of good to use another cliche. I was extremely idealistic when I first got into this stuff in my 20’s. It’s taken me a long time and a lot of burned bridges to realize life just ain’t that simple.
        If you wanna go live like a monk, fine and a very noble way to live, but we live in the modern world, and the VAST majority don’t put anywhere near the thought in about their lifestyle choices as even the most humble permie starting out.
        David has contributed so much good to this world. None of us would even be having these conversations if they didn’t start something.

        Was his presence at a “far right” rally an attempt to align with them? Or a honest attempt at bridging the gap and showing some people another less extreme and divisive way of living? Or a reaching out for any sliver of human connection in a time when we were all scared and isolated, and when all his previous allies were abandoning him for his personal choices, the same way that many were driven into aligning with the right? Myself included during that time. It wasn’t out of belief in what they stood for at all, they were just the only ones that would let you get near them without a vaccine passport. Those were dark days for all of us, no matter what side yo came down on, but some compassion is due for everyone, lest we do it all over again, forever.

        I have no idea what his motivations were at the time, and are now, and nor do you in reality. Only he does, and it’s hard enough to know your own motivations for the things you do, if you haven’t realized that about yourself by now I’m sure you will.

        I’ve read every word you’ve written here, a couple of times. I can’t say I understand you completely, but I’m listening, and acknowledging, you’re thought’s aren’t to be written off, It would just be cool to deescalate the blame game now, on all sides. I read in one of the other comments about you holding up a mirror to David to make a point, and it being one of the most soul crushing experiences of your life, or something along those lines. Time to turn it back now, you made your points, pretty eloquently if not a little harsh, but I get the frustration. Look at yourself now, where do you go from here? I can’t be getting myself stuck here either in an endless back and forth on the internet, there’s too much to do out there in the real world of trees and grass and sky, and beautifully flawed human beings craving real connection.
        Find your niche, this isn’t it. But writing certainly might be.

        1. Thank you for your response Mark. Like you, I think I understand some of what you have said, not all of it, but some of it, and I appreciate your effort and your willingness to address some of my responses. Thank you. You write, “Look at yourself now, where do you go from here?” I go my own path, I make hay while the sun shines, I show compassion and care where I can, and I’m harsh where I need to be. Our societies are larger than ‘Permaculture’. Peak Oil, remember that? Perhaps its still a thing, but building internet & data centres & electrification of transport in response to such requires high voltage electricians, heavy industry etc. The normal things of society. Rational reorganisation away from oil is not only possible but also will be required at the National policy scale and it will happen so long as the far right doesn’t mess it up. The less people we have spouting the far-right or even centre-right talking points the better. We can get on with this so long as people are not voluntarily using religion, ethnicity, gender, ‘wokeness’ or ‘Cultural Marxism’ as the bogey man. We have a lot of work to do and that dumb cuck is just really disappointing click bait slop.

      3. Thank you for holding up a mirror to me as well. It’s been a dark few days for me, I’ve been spending too much time online, absorbed in the problems of the world. I even called the crisis line last night.
        This is such heavy stuff we take on our shoulders, I hope you’re able to turn it off sometimes, and that you know you’re not alone and reach out to someone, anyone if it ever does get too hard.
        We don’t need to lose any more permies that way, or whatever you wanna call yourself, we’re all headed to the compost bin eventually, we’ll both make a fine meal for the trees soon enough as it is, might as well stick around and see what kind of fun we can have jamming a stick into the spoke of the wheel of “progress” while we’re here!

  24. David,

    I know I said I was done, but this is important.

    I have something I could use your help with. I’m reaching out to all my connections in the permacultre world in hopes at least some will grab onto this and help where they can.

    I’m sure you’re paying attention to the news, it’s hard not to.

    I’ve decided I need to try to doing something positive to counteract all the warmongering going on right now.

    I call it Opperation Epic Fruit Tree

    The main idea being to encourage everyone, everywhere to sponsor/ donate a fruit producing tree (any productive tree for that matter, fruit tree just works well for the pun) to their respective “enemies”, as defined by their countries or religions leadership, not personally. The people we are “suppose” to hate.

    As you know, trees are explosion events, just slow & stabilizing ones, not quick & destructive ones.

    I can’t do this alone, nor would I want to. This needs to be decentralized in order to work. I don’t care how it gets done, or who gets the credit, just that it gets done.

    Do you think you could offer any support? 

    Not to play on your emotions, but I’m partially doing this because of Dan, and people like him. I have been walking that knife edge for a long time now, and seeing the way the world is going, I feel like I don’t have much left to lose, it’s getting pretty fuckin’ dark out there, we need a little light. What’s the point of permaculture when we keep blowing it all up. All I see is a left and right fracturing of permaculture as a movement right now, and maybe it was never meant to be a movement, just a design system, but if we don’t at least try to culture jam these growing movements of division on either side, there’s not going to be much left to make stronger.

  25. I would argue that Charlie Mgee, and Formidable Vegetable are teaching the most advanced form of permaculture design we have yet devised, especially when it comes to teaching kids, which is immensely important.
    They’ve managed to distill all the ethics and principles down into a handful of upbeat, catchy tunes that stick in your head better than any 72 hour information dense design course ever could.

    They are making permaculture stronger, the torch has been passed on to the next generation, Please support this band at all costs, go see them in person, invite them to play at design courses, feed them so they don’t starve doing what they love! And don’t follow them of spotify, find a way to support them directly.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCszWVJMsQubTLsnYEeJ20mA
    https://formidablevegetable.com.au/

  26. David,

    This will be my last thought, and I think it’s a good way to close this off on my end.

    I think most of the problems that have plagued permaculture, likely from the beginning, stem from not enough emphasis being put on the fact that it is a design system that, at its core, is based around “radical PERSONAL responsibility”.
    I know it is mentioned, and likely thought to be implied, but I really don’t think a lot of people grasp that fully.
    If the major emphasis was on that one fact alone, it would be the “political and ideological immune system” that D. Merser was talking about. It’s not that it doesn’t exist, it’s that it’s being overlooked.

    The three ethics are a wonderful example.
    Care of the earth, Care of people, and Return of surplus gets easily easily misinterpreted and co-opted by any and all groups with various motives when not looked at from an individual perspective.

    Care of the earth, becomes a justification for eco-fascisim and large scale corruption
    Care of people, becomes “I know what’s best for the greater good” regardless if it’s left or right ideology being used as justification
    Return of surplus, becomes “fair share” which is easily morphed into justification for large scale communist-type movements to force others to give over what they have earned to the group, and we have many example in history of where that leads.

    When looked at through the lens of radical personal responsibility, it is dramatically different. Of course this is the main message behind the prime directive, but that largely gets brushed aside because its not as catchy and rhythmic as “earth care, people care, fair share” (Again a reason why Formidable Vegetable is on the right track)

    Under that lens, the ethics become:

    1. What can I do in my own life to care for the earth around me, and lessen my impact globally.

    2. What can I do to care for the people in my life; myself, my family, friends, community, regionally, globally; in that order, and referring back to the first ethic.

    3. How can I produce enough surplus of anything, be it materialistic or informational, that I have enough for myself, so that I can share with my family, friends, neighbours, community, and the world outside my direct scope of influence; again, in that order, and while referring back to the first two ethics.

    It completely short-circuits any of the issues of division and misinterpretation when viewed from that lens, and I think it was always meant to be like that, but because there was never enough emphasis on that as the “prime directive”, then we get to where we are today almost inevitably.

    It was actually D. Mersers comments that put that into perspective for me:

    “I genuinely thought “people care” meant a sociology of compassion and was the backbone of Permaculture. Trying to understand the contexts that shape people, and creating space where even those who feel brutalized by the world could come to the table.”

    “My anger isn’t because the “old permaculture” was good and the “new permaculture” is bad. My anger comes from the realisation that the structural and political psychology I believed in was never actually there. The vulnerability was baked in from day one. The marketing of “care for the earth and care for people” did not mean what I thought it meant, and I invested a lot of my time and my life into an illusion.”

    “As I pointed out previously, history offers a terrifying parallel. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the German Lebensreform (life-reform) movement championed organic farming, alternative medicine, and a return to nature. It was, on its face, a decentralized movement focused on “health” and “earth care.” But, I hazard, because it lacked a shared political immune system, it was easily co-opted. The language of “natural order” and “purity” was seamlessly twisted into “blood and soil.” The desire to weed out the invasive plants morphed into the desire to weed out “unfit” woke human beings. This hippy idea of Ecology without a rigorous, anti-authoritarian ethic is just a waiting room for eco-fascism which is a well-worn argument.”

    They are not necessarily wrong or right in their arguments. Right in the sense that without that part baked into the system it is open to all of this, and wrong, I believe, in that it wasn’t there from the beginning. I think it was, it was just never fully understood, and because of Bill’s approach of “take it and run with it”, it never really got the time to fully bake before it was delivered.

    So if it wasn’t taken and ran with it may have died with you, but if it had have had some time to be fleshed out before taking it to the world stage, it may have prevented many of these issues. You know what they say about hindsight though, I don’t have to say it, i use too many cliches as it is.

    I think now is about damage control, and repairing relationships, and urging the next generation of teachers to put a major emphasis on this. If anything would help make it stronger, I think it might be this.

    Thanks for your willingness to leave all this up here, it takes a strong person to willingly open themselves up to public criticism, and just know it comes from a genuine desire to perpetuate permaculture well into the future. That said, I think it’s a legacy you can and should be proud of, regardless of the outcome at this point.

    Mark

  27. I think my work as lived, designed, and written encompasses many of the themes and issues both you and D. Merser raise in your extensive comments so I don’t think I need to justify myself in that regard. I will acknowledge in answer to your questions about was it really necessary or useful to make points about Covid and its discontents or the emergent social norms that go under the short hand of Woke? I agree that these comments probably lead some readers who might otherwise be interested in the ongoing evolution of thinking by the co-originator of Permaculture, to dismiss and demonise those ideas, as demonstrated by the responses of D Merser. Perhaps in retrospect it would have been better to use more diplomatic language that was my tendency in my younger years. Maybe with age I have become a little more challenging, at times confrontational, but not ever to the extent of my elder co-originator who was famous for, or should I say infamous for such behaviour. Mollison always said permaculture design should avoid the problems associated with political or religious ideology but in teaching, writing and action was himself ruthless in casting down what he called Woo Woo by which he included new age spirituality, vegetarianism, and almost everything that today would be called Woke or even just “Progressive”. Without going into a lecture on Mollison, his world view or contradictions I think his politics were as more Libertarian than Anarchist and therefore from the philosophical Right whereas my lineage was from the Left and evolved to Anarchism, although I never used that term because it was still so contaminated by the late 19th century image of the bomb throwing Anarchist (originally from false flag events demonising Anarchists).
    I would also now compare my position and reputation in the wider permaculture movement as akin to what has happened to Australian radical feminist Germaine Greer in her later years because her ideas continued to evolve but not in the direction of the new dare I say “Woke” orthodoxy of mainstream Feminism
    I think the mistake you and to a greater extent D.Merser make is assuming my strong critique of ideas and even behaviour means I necessarily think the people supporting and even engaging in those behaviours are inherently bad people or that I disagree with them about everything the way D.Merser seems happy to demonise people on the political right as deluded, without empathy or value, if not evil. Those views seem very characteristic of urban life where we can choose to associate only with the like minded, while we mostly continue to depend on the mechanics of industrial capitalism but never have to acknowledge the farmers, truckers, miners and others who work within that system to provide our daily needs.
    As you indicated living in a rural community has required you to deal with, and acknowledge the views and worth of people with which you strongly disagree.
    As Pumpkinscone noted in a reply to one of D. Merser’s comments, the fact that I have lived the majority of my life in a rural community makes it unsurprising that I should share some of the outlooks common amongst rural residents.
    But to return to your point about personal responsibility. Nothing could be more central to my permaculture life and teaching.
    On every PDC in teaching PC ethics, I strongly emphasise the centrality of personal responsibility in interpreting the three ethics. That D. Merser has read the opposite perspective into my current writing and convinced you that he could be right shows just how difficult it is to communicate in our current context where projection of shadows based on trigger words is so common. For me that is a sign of the psycho-social fragility, just part of a larger loss of resilience to weather the storms of change which are sweeping over us all.
    You said how permaculture had provided conceptual shelter from these psycho-social storms that had at time threatened your will to go on. All I can add by why of encouragement is to trust in the wisdom of nature and our part in it. And yes if overthinking it all becomes a toxic spiral, plant food or trees, commune with bees or goats or whatever most grounds you most and makes you useful and valued by those that you, in turn depend on.

    1. No David, Pointing out that the Far right is immoral and dumb does not make me happy at all. I write all of this under duress. You seemed to be getting away with slop and I call you on it. Now you’re just writing more slop. Does anyone know what you believe anymore? You’re happy to throw mud at people and then you try to turn that around to be “I strongly emphasise the centrality of personal responsibility in interpreting the three ethics”. Bollocks. You’ve twisted yourself around so much that you think you can use words like “woke”, without any critical awareness that it is far right propaganda, and you think that denying climate change is now a form of taking personal responsibility. OMG. What a load of compost. Wake up! You’re all about dividing people now, urban vs rural. “Oh, no one appreciates the truckers or farmers.” Ummm. No. That’s more bollocks. You don’t know what’s in peoples minds, you don’t know how much people appreciate the work of the “conventional workers”. What is this world of make believe you’re trotting out? This is probably more a sign that you’ve been getting away with making things up for too long.

      Honestly, wasn’t it you that was all like, “ooooh, nooo, Peak Oil, ooooh, Odum, ohhhh we have to go back to the land and avoid doing mega farming, those people are too far into conventional culture to know that they are dependent on oil, we need hippy counterculture and organic woo woo, ooooh quick get out of the cities ”

      Please.

      1. All I’m going to say to this David, is that while this isn’t the person I was talking about, funny enough it exactly is, and I’m going to paraphrase myself to leave out the specific part and speak more generally.
        “You had a person so excited about making the world a better place, and has come to the one place where none of that should matter, and you lost them over an issue that will not matter in the grand scheme of things.”

        This is them, here and now. Not an abstract concept, a real person with a name and a heart, who once believed so fully in the concept you helped create that they invested a significant portion of their life energy into it, and I can tell just by the way they speak they’ve done a shit load of soul searching over it.
        So here’s a chance, and there’s two roads that can be gone down, one of trying to understand even if it’s painful, and one of continuing to bomb each-other with words. And I’m also speaking directly to you D.Merser. You need to allow David the space for this, and cool your jets a bit. I can feel your energy through the screen. You have a fire in you that could be channeled into so much good, don’t waste it like this.

        I won’t play mediator anymore, it’s up to you both the path you choose next. I’ve played this role my whole life and it’s taken so much out of me I barely have anything left for myself. I haven’t been very good at sticking to ethics and principles either. No time like the present. Good luck.

        1. Also, maybe exchange contact information and do this in person if you’re going to do it at all, or at least by email.

          Doing it here would feel pressured and performative, and is not the point at all. This is between the two of you, and doesn’t need to be public.

          I’m not trying to humiliate or chastise anyone, I’m trying to bring people together.

          1. I get it Mark. I’m not sure David does. I appreciate your attempt at moderation. I would be happy to cool my jets were David to change his writing and acknowledge the contradictions and silliness in what he’s been putting online. If David could just stop being such a MAGAtard I think we’d all be better off.

            1. I’m not sure you do. Using the same language in reverse is no better, just think about it.
              The thing about personal responsibility when it comes to situations like this is that it’s up to you to be the one to forgive first, and not have any expectations from others to do the same.

              If he reaches out to you, great, if he doesn’t then move on.
              He is under no obligation to change, he deserves freedom of speech and expression just as much as you, and he certainly won’t be inclined to while still having subtle little word-bombs hurled at him, don’t you get that? It’s the whole point of what I wrote. We have to change ourselves, that’s all we have control over. And it’s enough work for a lifetime.

              I would encourage you to just stop reading his work if it has this effect on you, cause trolling his comment section in hopes to change his mind is a waste of your potential and life energy which is so precious.
              Momento Mori.

            2. @Mark, (this comments page won’t let me respond to your comment below so I’m posting it here).

              Of course I get it. And I get that word bombs don’t progress a cool, calm, and collected discourse. But I just think David is beyond understanding this, so his “word bombs,” as you call them, are the order of the day until he shows some kind of recognition that he’s been a very silly boy. That’s what I’ve been banging on about. If you cast aspersions and demonise people like David has been doing, don’t come the raw prawn when others demonise you. It’s the golden rule: do unto others as you would be done by… Surely that would be the first thing taught in a ‘Permaculture’ course? Even in his response to you, he was just being a silly bum.

              I actually think your point is that there is a limit to free speech; when it gets on people’s nerves as ‘trolling’, then you should stop just for the sake of sanity… am I right? You want me to stop because it’s getting on your nerves, and you think it would be better to spend energy elsewhere. Fair. But what if David gets on my nerves now?

              The point here is that the far right are specialists in trolling, and if what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, well, it’s a troll party! Trolls all round. Basically, I’m just demonstrating the type of far-right trolling that David is demonstrating, because isn’t that what we are all about now as Permaculturalists? Hmmmmm? Trolling the left and the woke? Yes, thats a good idea, let’s troll those woke LGBTQI+ folks and their vaccines and the cultural Marxist weaklings. Yeah! Troll them! Troll the scientists!! Yeah! Get me some Permaculture trolls for the farm.

              There is no way out of this one unfortunately. Once you enter this cycle of reciprocal judgment and pointing the finger you become blind to your own hypocrisy while obsessing over the faults of others. It is a spiritual trap that leads nowhere but spiritual destruction. For those fond of Scripture (which I’m not particularly interested in but David was invoking the concept of ‘evil’ previously so maybe he is interested in that stuff now):

              Matthew 7:1-5
              “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

  28. Thanks for the reply, David.

    I think you misunderstand me just as much as I misunderstand you, but such is the reality of trying to communicate by writing.

    I know it may have come off as me sticking up for Bill in some way, and that you and he had somewhat of a falling out that I have no idea the details of, nor do I want to; so that colours your opinion of him obviously, but I understand Bill was a deeply flawed human being.

    In my Alan Watts comparison I tried to point this out.
    People want to hold Alan up as some sort of guru, and if you just listen to the words he said it’s easy to see why, but in his personal life he was an alcoholic womanizer who all but abandoned his family and drank himself to death.

    That’s why I love him, and that’s why I love Bill, and dare I say, you. I don’t want to take advice from people who are perfect, or trying to be. I’m not perfect, and never will be.
    Just because Bill or Alan we’re able to live up to the things that they “preached” about, for lack of a better word, doesn’t mean the core of their, and your, idea’s aren’t sound. It means they were human, and we are all living, breathing contradictions.

    Again the pitfalls of internet communication are almost too many to list, but D.Merser and I managed to have a relatively civil discourse where we agreed to disagree on a few things and left it at that. I encouraged them to move on from the angry comments directed at you, and hopefully they will. But the internet’s gonna internet.

    The fact that you think D.Merser convinced me of anything shows how easy it is to be misunderstood in writing. I don’t agree with them at all, but I can very easily see how they got there, and it’s because the emphasis on permaculture as a system of personal responsibility is easy to see in your mind as the originator, but you have to step in others shoes.

    It might seem so obvious to you that it only feels like it needs to be emphasized at the beginning of the discussion around the ethics, but I would argue that it’s so core to the system being able to function at all that it needs to be discussed at every stage and every level of teaching, and in any video or writing, it can’t be emphasized enough.

    Like you said, Bill did a lot of damage by inserting his own personal views into his teaching of the system, and maybe even opened it up for others to do the same in reaction to his opinions.
    I see it everywhere now, people using permaculture in their youtube names, and their entire content is nothing but talking about how evil the right and trump are, non-stop, every day. And on the flip side people doing the same about “libtards”, to quote a relatively prominent voice.
    It does absolutely nothing to help, and everything to hurt us.
    I know so many people doing so many good things, who won’t go near permaculture as a word anymore because of a lot of this, and it’s just sad.
    If people want to have a place to vent and express their opinions, fine. But it should be kept separate from their permaculture work, and also be understood that you can’t really separate those things in the eyes of people on the outside looking in, so every time there is an angry opinion about some other side, well meaning or no, it reflects on you as a person, and colours the way everything else you do in your life is perceived. High standards to live up to I know, and I’m nowhere near having a clean conscious in this, but like the second best time to plant a tree, now is the best place to start.

    I guess we are all just slaves to our ideologies, and can’t see past the whole thing, even the originators. And why would I expect any different, seeing that we are all just human.
    I really would love and appreciate if you would go back over my comments and really read them carefully, trying to step outside of your own personally held beliefs and the unresolved issues with Mollison as a person.

    Maybe I’m stepping way too much into the realm of “woo woo”, which would piss him off greatly I’m sure, but I also think Mollison was a sarcastic fuck who’s words couldn’t be taken at face value, and he was probably more spiritual than he let on, especially as he came closer to death.
    I don’t care either way, he can haunt me if he wants. What I am trying to get at is the idea that we are all one. And if we can’t even integrate that concept into a tiny little group of loosely associated misfits, and just TRY to see each other fully, stripping away all the other bullshit that keeps us separated, and see the humanity first, then permaculture is just another self-preservation strategy, and maybe like D.Merser, it didn’t mean what i thought it did.

    The great thing though is that,because it’s decentralized, it still means that to me, and that’s my fork in the road if everyone else is going in a different direction. May our paths cross again one day.

  29. Bill or Alan “weren’t” able to live up to the things that they “preached” about. The dangers of writing..

  30. And I know David, that just because you write about things doesn’t mean you believe them or align with them. But word’s have power and are easily misinterpreted in reading.
    It’s an impossible problem maybe only solved by less words, carefully chosen, or no words at all.
    You said it yourself “words spoken and written into this world do have the power to come to life, for better and worse. Maybe there is magic, for better and worse, in words and intention”

    I’m sure you can read into my last comment as being self-righteous and black and white. Implying that everyone else is going in the wrong direction and I’m taking the “right” path
    “and that’s my fork in the road if everyone else is going in a different direction. May our paths cross again one day.”
    If I can look back on it and see it myself, then for sure someone who doesn’t know my intentions could see it like that.

    Your whole essay is about this very thing, and yet you still have blind spots of your own, and of course you do, just as I do. I’ve got whole blind patches.

    The annoying part about all this is that it’s infuriatingly complex and involves a whole lot of back and forth conversation to arrive at even the most basic level of mutual understanding. Nobody has time for that. It’s exhausting. Easier to drop a word-bomb to end a conversation, and win the conversational war. To your credit, you’ve not done that, so thank you.

    I don’t know what the path ahead looks like, maybe there isn’t one, and that’s ok. Bill Hicks has a really good bit about it, and a bit of comedy seems fitting right now, when all else fails.

    It’s Just a Ride
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqv8Os-AdUo

  31. Everything I’ve been trying to say in my extensive and maybe excessive comments has been neatly summed up in this song by Formidable Vegetable – You Are What You Eat.

    From the microcosm to the macrocosm, the food we consume and digest, to the content we consume and digest. As above so below.
    These guys are on the leading edge, for now…until they get older and need a gentle kick in the ass from the next generation. So it goes. And I have to learn to do less talking and more listening.

    https://youtu.be/ayREN84DA7w?si=T6hnmrUuJA41iHWK

  32. Writing things out here has help me tremendously to clarify my thoughts, David, so thank you for the opportunity.
    I’m coming to the conclusion that it may be far more important to apply the ethics and principles articulated in permaculture in our communication with each other than on the landscape itself.

    There was always this danger in permaculture that if we don’t change the “invisible structures” that form the basis of our society, that all the amazing work we do on the land could be, and in many cases already has been destroyed.

    I’m not even so much talking about modern forms of “non-voilent communication”, which can do more to push people away sometimes when it’s not something you’re use to. I’m talking about meeting people where they are at, wherever that might be, and having understanding of their world view, however they got there and however entrenched they happen to be. Seeing the humanity in them and looking past everything else, no matter how difficult that proves to be.

    We’ve never known a time where humans were not killing each other. Even the tribal societies people like to romanticize had their own inter-tribal conflicts which would often result in war and death. The ones that remained largely peaceful were likely more by circumstance, having abundant resources and little contact with other tribal societies.

    It may very well be that we are at an extremely unique point in history, where for the very first time ever, we have a way to communicate globally, a collective general understanding of the mistakes past civilizations, and a threat greater than ourselves so catastrophic that we can no longer afford to solve our problems by blowing each other up, that being the mutually assured destruction of nuclear war.

    If permaculture is worth it’s salt, it should be the proving ground that at least a small, loosely-affiliated group of individuals can grasp the significance of this idea, and make it their mission to be the change we want to see in the world.

    I’m not religious, and spent much of my life thinking there was nothing of use in any of those ideas for me. I still feel that way about organized religion personally, in that I don’t need a middle man between me and whatever makes this universe tick, but there is a lot of wisdom in some of those old stories.
    The idea of the word having immense importance being central among them in many religions and cultures.
    If we lose the ability to communicate, all of the scenarios you describe for the future of humanity will bring us right back where we started, throwing rocks at each other, and likely, eventually, right back here again, throwing bigger more fancy rocks. And who knows, maybe this isn’t even the first time we’ve gotten to this point, and we just blew it all to oblivion that left no trace, but I like to stay in the realm of what we can at least prove somewhat for now, so as not to get lost in the weeds.

    Is this making any sense at all? I feel like it’s so clear in my heart, but my head has a hard time translating because of the culture I’ve been born into, sort of like David Foster Wallace’s story of explaining water to a fish. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsAd4HGJS4o

    This might be our one shot, right now at this moment in history, to change how humans interact, one individual at a time. If we get sent back to the stone age, or even forward into techno-utopia, without addressing these structural issues in our own hearts and minds, not those of society at large, then we will just find bigger and better ways to keep blowing each other up for eternity, or as long as humanity survives as a species.
    On one extreme we have a return to small-scale tribal warfare, and the other, we substitute left and right ideologies, for earth vs mars. “Those martians think they’re better than us” or “Those stupid people still on earth, living in the past” Blow them the fuck up.

    I know it’s so cliche it’s not even funny, but it may actually be true that one individual person can change the world, it might literally be the only thing that can at this point.

  33. I’ve been so careless with my words my entire life. I never realized what power the written word held to shape reality. I’m distinguishing this from the spoken word on purpose, because they are vastly different things.
    The further we get from face to face, one on one, spoken communication, along with the more subtle but equally if not more important cues of tone and body language, the more we lose touch with what makes us human. This is why we can travel to a foreign country, not speak the local language at all, but end up eating and laughing together, sitting around a fire making fart jokes and parting as friends.

    I’ve always felt I could express myself far better in writing than in person, and while that’s true in a sense, I forgot to take into account that the words that sound good in my head don’t always come off the same way to the person on the other end.

    Using my pen or my keyboard, I’ve pushed away people I loved dearly in my life, started wars in comment sections, and rattled off my opinions on subjects I really knew nothing about as though I was THE authority on the matter.

    Permaculture worked so well for my brain, cause it was based on systems thinking. Finally something I could wrap my head around, after a lifetime of feeling like a social outcast for the way my brain is wired. Only problem is I, and I think many people, left out the people part of permaculture. People are messy and unpredictable, they don’t fit well into systems.

    I always come back to a little quip Mollison said in passing in an interview, talking about community. It likely went over the heads of many people and got written off as just another one of his cynical rants, but I thought it was really profound and it’s stuck with me.
    He said that he hated the word community, cause people in communities like to control other people, and people don’t like to be controlled. He went on to say that he grew up in a village, and that a village was different in that it was just a bunch of individuals following the rules (by which he means the very basic rules of don’t kill people, don’t steal, etc.). I never forgot that. I come from a place similar to where he grew up, so I got it immediately.

    Ecovillages may be a bit of a misnomer, because most of them expect people to all have common ideologies, whereas a real village is a bunch of different people from all walks of life who don’t agree on very much in my experience, but help each other out when push comes to shove, and otherwise just stay out of each others way.

    That’s what I always thought permaculture was, or as I sometimes like to refer to it as “a loosely affiliated group of individuals” and I think it was at first, but it is quickly devolving into the same sort of left vs right, black vs right, us vs them thinking as the rest of the world at large, where if I don’t agree with you on everything, then we can’t work together or be friends.
    And I will make the very important point of emphasizing the fact that this is mostly happening on the internet, but as we live a major portion of our lives online these days, it’s bleeding over into real life as we wall ourselves off more and more from the outside world.

    There was also always the lurking danger of the people putting the “cult” in permaculture, and treating this as some sort of religion, rather than a life design system based on ethics and radical personal responsibility.
    There’s even the joke about the designers manual being “the bible”, certainly looks an awful lot like one from the outside. I won’t lie, I dragged that damn thing around with me wherever I travelled for years, I even took it with me on a 2000km bicycle touring trip!
    I’ve come to something recently though that helps me understand that impulse in people. We need to create meaning in our lives, and we attach ourselves to stories in order to do that. Doesn’t really matter the story, as long as you have a story to cling to so you don’t go crazy.

    This quote from Alan Watts changed all that for me. It’s actually a quote from a zen master friend of his, who was asked a question about translating the old zen textbooks into different languages to help spread the word. He said that was a waste of time, because If you really understand zen, you can use any book. You can use the Bible, you can use the dictionary, because “The sound of the rain, needs no translation”.
    Theres something there in that, that can be applied to permaculture thinking as well, and it’s likely that we’re doing too much thinking (and writing) and not enough listening.

    I think I’ve written enough words on your platform, David. Thank you for listening, please don’t view any of this as a personal attack on you, it’s just an attempt at coming to an understanding of what this system that’s been an extremely important part of my life for decades really is all about at it’s core.
    Thanks again for the opportunity to express myself freely.
    Mark

    1. D.Merser,

      I just read the article, not sure if it’s you who wrote it, or you are just sharing it. Regardless, it makes a lot of good arguments, and expresses a lot of personal opinions and views that may or may not be shared with everyone who associates themselves with the name permacuture.
      I think the main flaw in the thinking though, that makes the argument fall flat, is the idea that David is any sort of “guru”.

      The fact that you think that he has the ability to “spend the capital we all helped create” to any significant degree, means that not enough of us have fully grasped the revolutionary concept of what this system truly is.

      It’s ours. Own it.

      There are no leaders, no gods, no gurus. There are also no groups, only individuals taking radical personal responsibility for their own lives, and tasked with healing the wounds in their own hearts and minds that perpetuate this idea of dualism that we just can’t seem to get away from.

      This is not the kind of “rugged individualism” that ignores the pain and division in society and walls itself off, it’s the kind that so fully accepts their own role in perpetuating it, that the only choice is to clean up your own life before judging anyone else. You put on your own lifejacket first before you help others.

      Anyone with a strong sense of social justice has a beautiful heart, but are so dependent on the very systems they attack, they fail to realize that by trying to build these giant movements to “save the world”, they actually keep adding fuel to them. The article you shared pointed that out beautifully, but I would argue that the core of permaculture is incorruptible to that, if we really start understanding what it truly is .
      It’s why Bill never wanted permaculture to get into universities, cause he said that’s where it would go to die, get gobbled up by the very system it was trying to dismantle, and turned into just another product to be consumed.

      David is just a man, he may have had a hand in helping bring this system to life, but he is no more (or less) important in the direction it is heading in the here and now, and in the future than you or I or anyone else. Really try to wrap your head around that, cause it’s SO important, and it’s taken me till now, almost 20 years on, for it to finally click.

      Heres a fun little thought experiment for you, Bill and David are your parents (sorry for that visual). Are you your parents? No. Did your parents do and say a whole bunch of stupid shit in their lives that you don’t agree with? I know for damn sure mine did. Does that mean you have to? No.
      Did your parents also do a lot of really good things in their lives that you look up to them for? Likely yes, unless you have REALLY shit parents.
      Do you have kids? Or any experience with helping to raise someone else’s? If so, you’ll soon start to realize that maybe your parents weren’t all that bad after all, they were just doing their best, and they didn’t have the road map for life, or the instruction manual for raising a kid. Bringing a kid into the world is difficult. They have a mind of their own, and you think you know what’s best for them but you don’t.
      This idea may have been born of David and Bill, but they produced a child with a mind of it’s own.
      Welcome to the teenage years!

      Permaculture as a word is like you as an individual. Nobody can tell you how to live your life. If you personally don’t like the direction it’s going in, reclaim the word in your own life and show people your version you want it to be. The only caveat being, you can’t impose your own views of it on anyone else, you just have to live your example and hope enough people resonate with it to come along for the ride with you.

      I really don’t think people fully grasp how profound this is. There’s never been anything like this, where even the people who came up with the idea don’t own it, or have any more say in it’s direction than the people who adopt it into their lives.
      I feel like Bill maybe might have caught a glimpse of that at certain points in his life, but his own ego got in the way of fully being able to live up to it. I also believe David has seen glimpses as well, and sometimes alludes to it in his writing, but again, our ego is a powerful powerful thing, the closer we get to the truth of something, the more tricks it tries to play on us to draw us back into dualism.

      I for one am not willing to throw out the baby with the bath water on this one, I think it’s a big mistake. The baby is clean and pure, we are all the bathwater in our own way, luckily we all know that grey-water has plenty of useful nutrients and is not waste, but an untapped resource.

      1. I’ve updated the Medium article in response to some of your points Mark. I think ultimately for me the Permaculture brand is dead. As I’ve said before, there are nice bits and bobs one can pick up and use where relevant. but no thanks to David, the movement is over.

        1. I really do appreciate this back and forth we’ve had D.Merser. You’ve helped me clarify my thoughts around certain things that were foggy in my mind, so thank you for that.

          I’m sure we agree on many if not most things, so it’s ok to agree to disagree on this.
          I for one am just as happy to see the “brand” and the “movement” of permaculture die, so no argument there.

          I just really hope you’ll point your energy towards the things you want to see happen in the world, not against the things you don’t. There’s so much energy spent fighting in this world, that if steered towards actionable solutions, would speed up the process immensely.
          Not only that, but like I’ve mentioned a few times, just for your own personal well-being alone, it’s not worth it.
          I mean, feel free to keep doing what you’re doing, , but just realize that it’s not only David that you’re hurting when you bad-mouth permaculture, it’s millions of folks like me and others who still see something worth saving, and are doing our best to create those versions in our own way.
          I’m not going to try to stop you anymore, honestly, I don’t see you as an enemy for doing this, just part of the idealogical immune system in action.

          Thank you for caring about the place we all call home, and the people who inhabit it, no matter what name you choose to do your work under.

          Mark

          1. Thanks Mark. Yeah, I think I’m done. If David read’s the Medium article perhaps he will have cause to reflect and change his tune, or not, who knows. It’s just so disappointing. I’ll leave the article up for a while (a year?) just in case people want more context. Before David’s pivot hit my radar I was actually hoping to make a positive contribution, working hard on Corrado Giannantoni’s book, ‘The Maximum Em-Power Principle as the basis for Thermodynamics of Quality’ (2002). That book, and Giannantoni’s articles, have been my focus as an outcome of my 30yr long study of H.T.Odum. But I don’t think there is anyone in the former Permaculture community who would understand it, so its a lonely journey. Peace and good luck.

            1. Yes, leave it up. It adds context, and sparks conversation and debate, all of which is valuable. Any idea that has merit should be wide open to having it’s critics strip it bare to the core, and if it doesn’t hold up to that, it will fade away over time like all other failed ideas.

              It certainly sounds over my head! Don’t let that stop you though, pioneering work in any field is by it’s very definition, a lonely journey. Humanity depends on people like that though. One thing’s for sure, there are a lot of lonely people out there in the world, so take comfort that you’re not alone, and like Douglas Rushkoff says “we’re all on team human, find the others”.

              Peace my internet friend!

            2. If I’m to understand correctly though, the idea of emergy and exergy, could also be applied to this situation, and considering you yourself are a biological system, much better to (em)power yourself, than to waste that precious and finite life energy of yours (exergy?) on inefficient negative situations that get you nowhere.
              I think a lot of these systems that we try to explain scientifically, have been understood long ago by different cultures in different ways, and codified into myths and stories for us to decipher.

              Maybe I’m completely misunderstanding, but I just see a shit load of potential energy in you that is being used inefficiently, and I’d love to see you achieve the maximum amount of useful work you as a system are capable of, before you reach the dead state!

            3. Maybe humans are the one system that doesn’t obey these laws, and it’s up to us to empower ourselves?
              Maybe I’ve done too many mushrooms in my life?

            4. @Mark I’ve added some more systems diagrams for you near the end to show how Tom Abel explains the cycles of cultural capital.

            5. @Mark, I even found time to build a simulation model of the Permaculture draw down for you!

            6. @D. Merser
              I wasn’t sure what you meant at first, but I checked your. article and seen the model.
              I have two things to say.
              1. It’s really impressive, but honestly, my brain doesn’t even know what to do with something like that, it’s far beyond my level of understanding.
              2. It’s really impressive. If you have the ability to do calculations like that, I really feel like you are wasting your talents directing that energy towards things like this.
              It may or may not be that permaculture is in a downward spiral, but directing energy into observing it and documenting it rather than putting that energy into your own action based solutions to the problems of the world that need fixing seems counterproductive at best.
              Even if the worst case scenario of your criticisms are true, and permaculture is nothing more than a MLM scam, it’s at least directed energy towards more gardens, trees, water harvesting systems, etc.

              Focusing on the negative aspects of life will get us nowhere. You obviously have a talent for computing which is only going to be more and more important in the future we are moving into. Wouldn’t you rather be know as someone who produced something that helped the world through these hard times, rather than picking out the flaws of a system that is trying it’s best to be the change it wants to see in a world of flawed human beings and corrupt systems?

              Just really try to think about it, life is so short, being known as a person who spent their time trying to take down one of the only systems attempting to address the issues we face in the future with real tangible actions is just a waste of life potential, and I’m sure a guy like Odum would see it as such as well.

              There are people out there who do understand your work, collaborate with them and extend humanities understanding forward. We need people like you on the good side of things, there’s enough super smart tech people out there working on the downfall of humanity, you’re someone who could counteract that and help steer us in a positive direction.

            7. @Mark I _am_ on the good side of things! 🙂

              I’m aware life is short. I’m also aware that it is my responsibility to try and divert people away from Permaculture and help people see clearly who and what David has become.

              There are many scammers and charlatans out there and the less people get trapped in these pyramid schemes the better. TBH there are young people wanting “another way” and I was one of them. But David’s toxic ideas are no longer viable. If the goal is gardening, then just do gardening and if there are titbits in Permaculture that make for a better garden then that’s great. But David has weaved a psycho-cultural trap that I’m hoping others can avoid and thereby reach happiness, because my fear is that Dan Palmer found his way to unhappiness through Permaculture and I know also had many years of unhappiness. I think all this voluntary austerity and peak oil brow beating and fear mongering is a source of unhappiness, and all David’s recent slop is just more sources of hate and toxicity. I hope we can all see it for what it is an move on.

            8. All I can say is I wish you a meaningful life.

              I think I’ve reached my mental capacity of writing on this blog right now. The trees are coming into leaf here after a long winter, and I’m finding myself less and less interested in spending time on the screen.
              Hope you’re feeling the same
              Take care my friend
              Mark

            1. @D.Merser
              I didn’t mean to be dismissive of your input with that music video (not sure if you seen it yet) it’s just sort of my way of saying we are on two different wavelengths right now, and I feel like you’re not really taking my point of view into consideration, cause i’ve been trying really hard to see yours. I don’t feel the need to convince you of anything at this point, there’s also a good chance that you and I are the only two people reading anything we a writing, so I don’t take any of this too seriously, but you just seem like a good person and I don’t want to brush you off, I’ve been trying my best, but I’m also getting tired.

              I honestly feel like you yourself had David held up as some sort of guru in your own mind when you first got into this stuff, and it shattered your worldview when he proved to be human like the rest of us by going against the ideas of what you thought his personal politics were
              .
              You forget the other side of the coin though, Mollison, and all the people he taught and influenced over the years. The many people both David and Bill taught, which went on to be influential in their own right, doing amazing real world work, publishing books of their own, etc.
              I understand your energy feedback model in a way, but I think you’re too hyper focused on David.

              Ok, I’ll go along with your line of reasoning for another thought experiment. Say David is the benefactor of all the collective information generated by individuals who choose to associate with the idea of permaculture. I don’t agree personally for the reasons i’ve repeatedly stated, but for sake of your argument, fine.
              The guy lives on a 2 hectare lot in suburban Australia, and as far as I know, could count on 1 or maybe 2 hands the amount of flights he’s been on since introducing the concept to the world. Not exactly “ballin” as the kids would say.
              Maybe he has offshore bank accounts we don’t know about, and takes secret flights out to private islands to engage in occult rituals with the elite of the world…Unlikely, but hey, it’s a crazy world out there, who knows?

              Sure, he makes money off the work he publishes, rightfully so. He doesn’t take a cut from anyone else publishing their own permaculture work.
              If you were to publish a book based off of your own interpretations of the work of Odum, would you not take money from the sales? We all steal each others ideas, it’s nice to give credit where credit is due for sure, but sometimes the idea you have is had by someone else at the same time, sometimes its just time for that idea to be born, it’s in the air.

              I really don’t think he’s trying to be the King of permaculture. There are some other people out there who actually use those terms in a slightly joking, slightly serious sort of way, and it’s just weird. Do we really want to recreate the feudal system as the basis of a new society, a benevolent king is still a king?

              I think you’ve got a bit of a witch hunt going here honestly, and you can be mad at me for saying that, I’m ok with it. Like David, I’ve made my peace with being seen as an outcast, I’ve been one my whole life, and another person who misunderstands me is not going to get under my skin too much at this point in my life, I’ve been through too much shit.

              The reason I engaged with you from the very beginning and didn’t write you off as a bot or a troll like almost everyone else has, is that I seen something in your writing that was human, and just hurt by something that was more of a misunderstanding of what this system is, than anything David did to you personally.
              I’m not saying you have no reason to have a beef with him, I have no idea how you know each other, if you do, and what went down, same as with him and Mollison. It’s beyond the point of all this, and while I feel like David has a strong grasp on it, he falls short of really seeing what this system is and could be as well.

              It’s so silly this whole idea that even the two originators couldn’t see past their disagreements enough to work together more over the years, and that there is this weird unspoken sort of lineage idea hanging over permaculture to begin with, that you’re either a descendant of “Mollisonian” ideology or “Holgrenian” logic. But…they are human. Humans human.
              The evolution of this system is to get back to the roots, before the split, when the two were excited and united.
              It’s kind of funny in an absurd way, how it’s was this old, cranky flamboyant dreamer meeting a young introverted hyper-rationalist systems thinker that brought this idea into reality. The epitome of yin/yang coming together to make a united whole. You couldn’t write a better plot line.

              I get that you’re disillusioned with what you see as “the” direction of permaculture, but there is no direction, it just keeps going in all directions, by the individuals who carry the idea forward in their own way.

              Turning it into a movement helped get the idea out there more quickly, but hurt it’s reputation by allowing it to be co-opted by both the left and the right leaning ideologies of the world to further their own agendas.

              The core of permaculture is incompatible with dualistic thinking like that, there will always be an enemy to fight if we fracture into groups. We weren’t given the greatest role models in that regard, considering the split between David and Bill, but like my parent analogy, you are not your parents. You also get to a point in your adult life, if you’re lucky, where you realize your parents aren’t your parents anymore. They become just two humans, two little babies even, in your eyes, and you can start to have compassion for their mistakes, cause you see them in yourself.
              Then if you’re really lucky, and have a whole bunch of mental and physical hardship in your life that drives you to the brink of suicide, and if you’re lucky enough to manage to come out of that, you start to realize that compassion needs to be extended to everyone, including your “enemies”, and maybe most importantly of all, yourself, cause we all are our own worst enemy.

              That’s why permaculture is about radical personal responsibility, both internally and externally, cause it’s the only thing we have even the slightest bit of control over in this life.
              Take a deep dive into the torus as a model from the lens of systems thinking and energy, you seem to really have the brain for the nuts and bolts of that stuff, I don’t, and it hasn’t been studied near enough. I do think it needs to be combined with all the ancient wisdom of the cultures who understood these things intuitively and through natures models and teachers though.

              Splitting things apart always seems to get us into trouble.

            2. @Mark, some notes on your post:
              > “Sure, he makes money off the work he publishes, rightfully so. He doesn’t take a cut from anyone else publishing their own permaculture work.”

              He never took a cut from the work that people did for free, that would be impossible. But he did get more followers, more people doing his courses and buying his books from the attention that we gathered for him.

              > “I really don’t think he’s trying to be the King of permaculture.”

              I don’t know what he has been trying to be, or what he has been doing this all for.

              > “I seen something in your writing that was human, and just hurt by something that was more of a misunderstanding of what this system is, than anything David did to you personally.”

              Thank you. I appreciated it. No, I don’t think it was a misunderstanding. I think I understood clearly. But I didn’t realise he harboured these views which I utterly reject.

              > “I’m not saying you have no reason to have a beef with him, I have no idea how you know each other, if you do, and what went down, same as with him and Mollison.”

              The only thing that “went down” was that I read his Climate Series blog posts after the Dan Palmer passed away.

              > “… there is this weird unspoken sort of lineage idea hanging over permaculture to begin with, that you’re either a descendant of “Mollisonian” ideology or “Holgrenian” logic. But…they are human. Humans human.”

              I don’t see myself in either camp.

              > “I get that you’re disillusioned with what you see as “the” direction of permaculture, but there is no direction, it just keeps going in all directions, by the individuals who carry the idea forward in their own way.”

              I’m not sure I’m disillusioned with “Permaculture” because I’m not sure what that would be other than a brand. I’m disillusioned with David’s recent writing. I think it wouldn’t be right to say that David was irrelevant to Permaculture, and the direction of Permaculture. I feel like something that something which just keeps going in all directions at the same time isn’t distinct from random Brownian motion, and that’s not a movement in my mind. That’s just disconnected people doing stuff.

              > “The core of permaculture is incompatible with dualistic thinking like [ left and the right leaning ideologies]”

              I’m not sure what the core of permaculture is. If we can all propose different “cores of permaculture”, I’m not sure it makes sense to say that there is a core, or anything at all. It’s just people coming up with a view of the world. “Permaculture” is kind of meaningless at this point. You could use any word.

              > “compassion needs to be extended to everyone, including your “enemies”, and maybe most importantly of all, yourself, cause we all are our own worst enemy”

              I agree with the latter, but not the former.

              > “That’s why permaculture is about radical personal responsibility…”

              I used to think that. But reading David, the co-originator, I don’t think that anymore.

              > “I do think it needs to be combined with all the ancient wisdom of the cultures who understood these things intuitively and through natures models and teachers though.”

              Yes and no. We are embedded in the hyper modern now. Anthropology can be interesting and useful, but not so much for micro chip design at the moment. I could be wrong. Mollison didn’t talk much about how ancient cultures were embodying Ohm’s Law and Kirchoff’s Laws. Holgrem talked about systems science but never used Ohm’s Law and Kirchoff’s Laws to model anything. Odum did. Technology changes the way we do things.

              > Splitting things apart always seems to get us into trouble.

              Maybe. Functional decomposition is useful.

              Somethings only have short life spans. Some things longer lifespans. No one has shown how to model the lifespans of all things, all systems, all cultures and entities.

              Thanks again Mark. I appreciated your comments and attempts to reach a hand out.

  34. Vegetable Secrets – Jesse Welles

    “never underestimate the merit of a carrot
    never ever doubt the power of a Brussel sprout
    always keep your mind on the bright side of the tater
    listen to the garden it’ll tell you what it’s all about

    vegetable secrets

    the corn is born in the soil of the summer
    and the mushroom bloom in the dew down under
    plant the marigolds between the rows, that’s what momma told us
    look under a rock, see a toad, that’s a bonus

    it’s a vegetable secret
    vegetable secrets

    plant a seed in your mind that’ll grow a big smile
    start a club for the bugs in the compost pile
    it’s the habit of a rabbit to be nibbling with a grin
    you can chase the bunny off, he’ll be coming back again

    for them vegetable secrets
    vegetable secrets

    I do the eggplant dance while the celery sings
    I’m gonna jam with the yams with the peppers and the peas
    I take a stroll by the gnome
    I always say wussup
    I got two green thumbs
    and I’m gonna stick em up

    for them vegetable secrets
    vegetable secrets

    plant a seed in your mind that’ll grow a big smile
    start a club for the bugs in the compost pile
    it’s the habit of a rabbit to be nibbling with a grin
    you can chase the bunny off, he’ll be coming back again

    never underestimate the merit of a carrot
    never ever doubt the power of a Brussel sprout
    always keep your mind on the bright side of the tater
    listen to the garden it’ll tell you what it’s all about”

  35. Feel free to cut me off David, but I’ve got one more for anyone who is taking the time to even read this.

    There will never be a chance of any “permanent culture”, no matter how good our design skills or technology get, until we learn to apply the ethics and principles to our own individual hearts and minds; the inner landscape if you will, or what some refer to as “zone00”.
    As long as we see ourselves as separate from each other, we will continue to fracture like fractals into infinite groups of us vs them. Even the social movements that suppose to want to help the marginalized in society, marginalize others in the process and create the new out groups.

    To what end? Do we round up all of those with right leaning views, or left leaning views? Just because one or the other group holds power at a certain point in history, doesn’t mean the other goes away. It just builds anger and resentment on the sidelines until it becomes their time to once again take the reigns, and look out! if you’re on the other side, no matter what side that happens to be.

    Permaculture is not a social movement. It was never meant to be. That’s where we got in trouble, though it was a misunderstanding not a mistake. It’s not a group. It’s a bunch of individuals following the very simple ethics, and using the principles defined by both David, Bill, and the many others who have come after and added to it (Ben Falk has loads of good ones!) to help guide us to those ends.

    It’s a lens from which to view reality, your own personal reality.

    Care of people at the very fundamental level means treating them with dignity and autonomy, not telling them what they should do, or how they should live. Any group trying to do that is missing the point. The point was to find the common ground among us, put the rest aside, and work together on building an example of the future we’d like to see.

    Almost everyone else is doing the us vs them thing. It’s all we’ve ever done as a species, except for the odd duck every now and then like a Jesus or Buddha character, who tries to talk some sense into us, and in the immortal words of Bill Hicks “We, kill those people!”

    We’ve done this throughout history, and it’s what’s gotten us here. We’re still doing it, assuming our western value systems are THE way to see the world, and imposing it on cultures who will co-operate willingly, and exploding the ones that don’t.
    This just radicalizes the next generation of kids who watched their families get murdered, and creates forever wars. And as above, so below, it trickles down through every level of our society, from politics and religion, right down to your neighbour next door; you know the one, the one that leaves the trash bin out by the road too long, or parks their car in everyone’s way. Blow ’em up!

    People join groups for one main reason, they want to feel like they belong to something, cause it’s rough out there, and going it alone in this world is very scary, and something that would have gotten you killed pretty quickly in our past.

    Times have changed though, at least for western based society. We have the amazing luxury of independent thought and action at this point in history, and we waste it on the most meaningless, trivial bull-shit.
    Instead of focusing that energy on cultivating understanding of the worldviews of others and bringing people together, we create problems just so we can fight about them.
    I bet the majority of people who associate themselves with the name permaculture, agree on just about 90% of the issues in the world, but many if not most will not associate with another individual if they share a different political leaning, or opinion on vaccines or some other big picture, unsolvable cultural issue.

    Considering that this is how most of society acts in general, an that we are a tiny minority who even contemplate these issues to begin with, our civilization as we know it is likely on the decline, as it’s impossible we will all ever agree on everything. Nothing lasts.
    We need to build new models of the world we would like to see. This likely is the best we can do. If we start those models off with the same kind of thinking that is currently brining this civilization down, we are building the rot into the core.

    Permaculture might not be perfect, but perfect is the enemy of good, and I haven’t found anything else that even comes close to the freedom imbedded in this system for creative adaptation to the changes that are coming, both internally and externally, and in reality are already here. You don’t DO permaculture, there are no “ists or “isms” in this, you use permaculture in what YOU DO.

    At least that’s my interpretation.

  36. I’d like to prepose a reordering of the ethics into a more realistic order of priority:

    Care of People, Care of Earth, Return of Surplus to those ends.

    Without people, the earth takes care of itself, and always has. Species come and go. Ices ages, meteor impacts, floods, tectonic shifts, super volcanos that block out the sun for years if not decades…Life is still here. Even those who think that we’ve intervened to the point where all life systems will collapse if we don’t step in…really?
    Life started from nothing, and without humans to think about it, time means nothing. Maybe we should try to be less arrogant. It may not be our nostalgic view of how life “should” be from a frozen little snapshot in the minuscule lifespan of an individual human being, but life will go on long after we’re gone, in some form or another.

    We are the only species that we know of capable of intentional self-destruction. We are also the only species capable of “playing god (whichever form you happen to believe that takes)”, for better or for worse.
    We could make this place an abundant paradise exploding with life or we can make it the living manifestation of the concept of hell (hell on earth).

    Caring for people is a prerequisite for caring for the earth, if we wish to remain a part of it, otherwise we will get the boot sooner rather than later, and we won’t be missed.

    That means not othering the other, in the millions of creative ways we’ve come up with to do so, which only ends in war and death, on all levels. It means accepting we are all human first, above all else, and then using and valuing our differences creatively rather than trying to erase them, or form some monoculture of human beings…a fate far worse than extinction.

    Will we rise to the challenge as a species? I don’t know, up to us as individuals, which is both scary and liberating. It’s ok though either way, It’s just a ride. The least we can do is try to make the ride as interesting, meaningful and fun as possible, wether we’re heading for a brick wall or new horizons.

  37. Is any of this making any sense at all, David, or is it just coming off as hippy dippy, hand-holdy new age spiritual woo woo? Cause in my mind it’s not at all what I’m trying to get at, the things I’m saying, in my mind, hold the key to permaculture functioning at all as a system, and are imperative to any sort of permanent future of diverse cultures.

    Permaculture can’t be a social movement cause that implies duality, that we are separate from each other, that we aren’t all human first, that our groups come first before our humanity, and that will only lead to continuous war, either through words or bullets.

    Lets follow it down the line a little, we are in “the future”, the social movement of permaculture has gained hold to the point where it’s influencing politics at a high level, but it’s fractured like every movement does, into left vs right. Do we have the Red Permaculture party and the Blue Permaculture party fighting with each other for power and influence?
    Maybe even more scary, does permaculture morph into a justification for the imposition of a “green” monoculture on society, for the greater good of course, like those things always are?Looked at through the lens of a social movement, it’s really not outside of the realm of possibility in a not too distant future of climate shifts meeting political instability and the refugee crisis. That name, Permaculture, would be awfully catchy as a banner and slogan to get behind. Unless something is done to correct course and get back to the roots of the system, as one of radical personal responsibility, then it almost seems inevitable that it will either fracture into a million pieces and be diluted to the point of being useless, or be corrupted into something much worse like this.

    You say Bill leaned more libertarian in his views, and you more towards anarchism, very good case in point. Both have been tainted to the point where they are almost unusable as ideas to associate with due to false flags and propaganda campaigns. All movements open themselves up to these things because they play the game of us vs them to begin with.

    Permaculture is about patterns, and the core model is the Taurus. It’s the uniting force of all things. It shatters the illusion of separation. It shows us the interconnectedness of things we view as polar opposites. We need each-other, everyone, not just our like-minded people, our “tribe”. I’m not saying people shouldn’t be part of movements, social movements have brought about great changes in our lifetime, I’m just saying permaculture can’t play that game if it’s goal is really to create “permanent culture”. It need’s to remain a system applied at the individual level, both internally in our hearts and minds, and in turn, externally in the work we do to help bridge the gap between us and our sphere of influence.

    You are in a unique position to help correct course, being the only living originator of the idea, your words still carry a lot of weight. It’s not a hierarchy thing, it’s more of a leading by example thing, and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I think deep down you’ve known all along that it should have never morphed into a social movement, and was likely the reason you retreated off into your own work rather than taking the route Mollison went. That said, if Mollison hadn’t have done what he did, we likely wouldn’t be having this conversation right now, so maybe it had to be this way.

    And of course, maybe I’m wrong. I’d rather be wrong and look like a fool, than right and full of regret for not speaking up.

  38. Navel gazing might not be as bad as it’s made out to be, if it brings us to the realization that we all have one, and that’s what makes us human. It’s likely no coincidence that term is used in a derogatory way these days. You contemplate your navel long enough you’ll realize we’re all the same.
    We are all expressions of the torus pattern ourselves, originating at the navel, branching and rooting outwards from this origin point just like trees, in all the diverse shapes and colours nature has bestowed upon us, not for judgement, but for beauty and diversity.
    That’s the model of permaculture, individual expression of the vast diversity of nature, all working inter-dependently yet separately to keep the whole thing going. Everything is perfect the way it is, but we could certainly make it a whole lot better experience for humanity if we started using nature as a model and stop trying to reinvent the torus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym4Rpd72tq8

  39. I guess you can think of an individual human being as a “mobile event”, with the unique ability to mimic all other events in nature that are basically pre-programmed, running on the inbuilt instinct of the organism, or the natural process of the non-living elements (if we want to use a limited view, and not understand the earth itself as one giant living system (what some like to call Gaia).

    A beaver (another mobile event) has the ability to shape landscapes, but not the ability to do so intentionally, it’s just a built-in instinct. It hears water running and tries to stop its flow, almost like a robot programmed to do a task, just a very sophisticated, beautiful one.
    We shape landscapes intentionally, both for destructive and regenerative ends.

    Birds fly not by choice, but by their nature. We choose to fly, and achieve it with great difficulty, creativity and willpower.

    A tree is a relatively stationary event, but still an extremely powerful force none the less. It’s like a slow moving explosion. We mimic it in many ways, from building solar panel arrays, to umbrellas for shade, to water purification/ filtration systems, soil stabilization devices, sky-scrapers and towers, bombs, etc, etc.

    This ability to mimic applies to every level of our existence.
    This may sound weird or controversial to some, but I’m coming to see all social movements as inherently destructive in the big picture view of things. No matter how well-meaning, they completely rely on there being an “evil”, in order to exist at all. They need something to feed off of, so could almost be described in a pattern sense, as a swarm of locust.
    Once the old crop of evil is wiped out, they need to find a new enemy to feed on or the whole thing dies out. Luckily (unluckily) there will always be a new enemy. It’s a positive feedback loop with no end.
    Social movements in a capitalist based system are even more prone to this behaviour because of the profit incentive.
    It’s easy to observe in large scale movements like greenpeace, who started out very well meaning, but now have become more of a business that relies on it’s enemies to keep doing what they are doing in order to keep the money coming in to fight them, and keep the organization alive. Not only that, in many cases they are now actively working against ancient sustainable indigenous land and water resource use traditions in order to achieve their goals.

    Permaculture could just as easily stray down this path, in fact I already see it happening on a smaller scale. We are playing with fire. I’m not sure it’s possible to put the genie back in the bottle fully at this point, it’s gonna take a lot of convincing.
    Many people have latched onto the idea of permaculture as a movement for social reformation at this point, both with left and right leaning ideologies as their drivers, it might be very difficult to decouple from that. If there is any hope of permaculture staying true to it’s original purpose though, I really believe it’s a necessary shift that needs to be made.

    You titled this last essay “returning to the roots”, this is what I’m trying to get at. The roots are the core model, the torus, and it’s incompatible with social movements that rely on division as fuel, cause division is an unlimited fuel source.
    The underlying pattern of the torus is the realization we are all one, all individually unique and equally valuable expressions of the universe we are born out of, or in the much more poetic words of David Foster Wallace “on fire with the same force that lit the stars”

    The ethics and principles of permaculture of course can and should be used IN social movements by individuals, it just can’t BE a social movement, and remain true to it’s original intentions.

    At least that’s my interpretation. I could go on trying to explain myself, but I feel like I’ve done as good a job as I can, and do feel a little like I’m talking to the wind. I understand you’re busy and this is a lot to take in so no worries, but until I hear from you I’m going to back off and just journal my thoughts.
    Thanks again for listening, David, please forgive my somewhat blunt communication style, it’s just how I’m wired, I’m working on it.

    Mark

  40. Sorry David, just a short note to clarify my point. In my line of reasoning, there is actually no such thing as a “permaculture demonstration site” or a “permaculture farm” as such, just sites and farms that have been designed by individuals using permaculture ethics and principles in their work and decision making.
    I might even go as far as to say there is no such thing as a permaculture designer, just someone who uses permaculture in their design work, though I’m not as clear on where to draw that line.

    Might seem like semantics, but I don’t think so.

    It’s like it sits in this weird place between a noun and a verb.
    It’s a system so it’s a noun, but it’s more of an action word too, but one that is used in what you do (like a system), rather than doing it (designing a permaculture, or being a permaculture designer, like a landscape architect or something), if that makes any sense at all. It’s so hard to pin down.
    If you start using “ists”, “ers” , and “isms”, and labeling things as a “permaculture this or that” then it moves more towards a movement, or at least opens itself up to being judged as one. Once you label it, then it becomes a thing, then all the baggage that is attached to words come into play, and messes everything up.

    Maybe some are coming to those conclusions on their own intuitively, and just quietly slipping away from using the name, and moving to more general terms like holistic design, or whole systems design, etc, to describe their work, which I’m fully in support of.

    Matt Tracys point of the name permaculture being a “strange attractor” is valid, but it might prove to be it’s downfall over time. It’s an idea little understood even by those engaging with it for years. It was always hard to define, but because it never was very clear, we are where we are now. D.Merser is just an amplification of a growing misunderstanding, and maybe it’s too late to recover, I don’t know.

    And maybe like you say, it’s just a flowering that had it’s time, and now comes senescence, and the seeds remain dormant to grow again in some other form. I’d rater see it become perennial though, than see it get plowed under prematurely.

    1. David Holmgren

      Thank for your perspective and yes I agree that “permaculture demonstration site” or a “permaculture farm” may be lazy short cuts that undermine the essence of permaculture between noun and verb.

  41. @D.Merser and David
    I think Dan Palmers suicide was a watershed moment for permaculture in general. Where it goes from here I guess only time will tell. The fact that it’s sparked these types of conversations is extremely valuable, but the real work is in the doing, regardless of the name.
    If nothing else, lets honour Dan by striving to embody even a fraction of the optimism he exuded in his work and life.

    Thank you both for engaging with me.
    Keep your stick on the ice,

    Mark

  42. David, I really wish you hadn’t gone down this path.

    Re-reading these articles it’s astonishing that you don’t seem aware that giving voice to these views could cause damage to other people in Permaculture and to your own reputation. The ideas themselves are just irrelevant to most people, and offensive to others, and given that balance it makes no sense to commit them to the electric record. The non sequitur that they present, the internal contradictions–care for people, but not those people–and the crap they spray on the rest of us are again something very strange for you to do.

    This is why at the start of all this commentary I wondered whether you had gone into cognitive decline. It was just too hard to fathom. It shows a complete lack of awareness, and that you seem to want to stick to these views as if it were a moral thing is just absurd. A total head scratcher. None of it passes any of your so-called pub tests.

    There was no real gain to anyone from printing these ideas David if you’re reading. I don’t see any sustainability index or Permaculture metric suddenly gaining 10% points as a result of your writing. No one can suddenly grow more fruit crops as a result of these essays, or prepare a better compost, or harvest more rain and control the air/water balance of the soil in an optimal way. And you don’t seem to be inclined to explain yourself. Its just so shocking and I really don’t think that’s something for you to feel proud about or feel as if you are righteous in some crusade.

    Its really surprising that of all the ideas that could drift into the mind at any time, that you held on to these ones so strongly and thought that they were not only important enough to print, but that these were the things that you wanted to leave us all with in your last years of life. As if these were the secret wisdom, the nuggets you had accumulated from your time on a small “back to the land” holding. That you wanted to pass onto us all these writings as your legacy, is so very hard to understand.

    In reality they have no importance whatsoever to forward the cause of establishing a “Permanent Agriculture”, and they only appear to operate to create attention, like the way Trump creates attention. And that’s perhaps the most disappointing thing of all.

    Its really sad.

    Vale Permaculture.

    1. What troubles me most about David’s decent, the saddest part, is the drift away from humanism.

      Permaculture began as an ethical project: recall the book, “Permaculture Principles”. Care for earth, care for people, fair share were not slogans but moral commitments. They implied patience, cooperation, and a belief that ecological repair and social dignity belonged together. But the David Holmgren Permaculture now defines itself through hostility rather than care.

      Instead of offering an alternative social imagination, David adopts the tone of cultural grievance. Energy is spent identifying enemies, exposing betrayal, and drawing boundaries around who understands reality and who does not. Critics are dismissed and ignored rather than engaged. Institutions are condemned wholesale rather than analysed. The language becomes less about cultivation and more about exclusion.

      When ecological thinking takes this turn, it begins to resemble the political cultures it claims to oppose. Reactionary movements, like David’s new form of Permaculture, thrive on resentment and symbolic enemies. He simplifies complex systems into moral struggles between the pure and the corrupt, reproducing the psychological structure of exploitative capitalism rather than transcending it. The mindset remains adversarial even if the stated goals are ecological.

      From this perspective it becomes easier to understand why mainstream environmental actors such as The Guardian or the Greens are framed as adversaries rather than imperfect partners. Once a movement like David’s new Permaculture defines itself through opposition, cooperation looks like compromise and nuance looks like weakness.

      Humanism matters here because it keeps ecological thinking connected to people. A humanist approach accepts complexity and recognises that transformation happens through engagement with society, not withdrawal from it.

      Permaculture once held a more expansive promise. It promised an ecological design science that reconnected technology, culture, and landscape. The strength was integration rather than separation. Diversity, equity, feedback, and collaboration were understood as sources of resilience.

      But now David is trying to organise Permaculture as an ideology organised around scarcity and resentment, rather than a creative response to capitalism. Now Permaculture mirrors Capitalism’s competitive logic that only needs to align with Nationalism to become the palingenetic ultranationalism that Roger Griffin analysed as cultural fascism.

  43. I’ve been studying and practicing Permaculture for over 25 years, and I don’t read this text simply as an argument or a position. I read it as a kind of release.

    A release from the subtle pull toward collectivized thinking—the tendency to anchor ideas in consensus, identity, or shared narratives. What is being expressed here moves in another direction. It brings the focus back to direct perception and to individual responsibility as the true starting point of any meaningful design process.

    If Permaculture is to remain a living, systemic design science, it cannot become fixed. The moment it hardens into doctrine, it loses its vitality. It stops responding to reality and starts projecting itself onto it.

    What stands out in this writing is not only the content, but the example being set by its co-creator, David Holmgren. By openly expressing the evolution of his own thinking, he makes something very clear: Permaculture is not something to be preserved in a static form, nor something defined once and for all by its founders.

    It is something that must continue to evolve—through practice, through observation, and through the responsibility of those who engage with it.

    That responsibility cannot be delegated. It sits with each practitioner. Not as an added layer, but as the foundation itself. Personal responsibility is not an advanced concept within Permaculture—it is where it begins.

    There is also something important in the tone of this work. To share one’s evolving thinking publicly, knowing it may challenge expectations or provoke disagreement, requires a certain independence of mind. It reflects a commitment to coherence over approval.

    Across this series of texts, what we see is not a fixed message, but a process unfolding. Ideas are not being defended for their own sake; they are being reworked, refined, and reorganized as understanding deepens.

    Taken as a whole, this is not just a body of work—it is a trace of thought in motion.

    A living demonstration of ideas in continuous synthesis.

    1. Thank you for your interpretation of process you see in these essays. It certainly add the primacy of personal responsibility that is foundational to permaculture. The unfolding thought processes that I have tried to be true to is, of course, difficult reflecting from a point in time back over 50 years, and perhaps I could have re-read more of what I did put in writing over the years to provide even more anchors not so subject to reinterpretation. Maybe if essays do get turned into a book, that process might be just or more important than updating my thoughts as our turbulent future becomes more clear, or more uncertain and confounding.

  44. After more than 25 years studying and practicing Permaculture, I read this final piece as a turning point.

    There’s a clear movement here. A step away from the expectation that ideas should remain stable over time. And also a step away from the quiet pressure to align with dominant narratives just because they carry scale, authority, or moral weight.

    What comes through is less comfortable, but more real: even systemic thinking can end up absorbed by the abstractions it once tried to resist. Concepts like climate, sustainability, equity—they begin as attempts to describe reality, but over time they can take on a life of their own and start shaping perception instead of being shaped by it.

    Something important slips when that happens.

    Design depends on contact. Direct, grounded contact with what is actually there. What can be observed, engaged with, and lived. Once that contact weakens, design becomes interpretation layered over interpretation.

    This is where enlightened self-interest lands differently for me. Not as a position, but as a practical constraint. It keeps action tied to a scale where feedback exists. Where consequences show up. Where you can’t hide behind narratives.

    Acting in the name of the global is easier. It creates distance. Acting within your own sphere forces alignment between what you see, what you believe, and how you live. That’s a much tighter loop.

    There’s also something in this text that goes beyond critique. A willingness to revisit one’s own past thinking without protecting it. To let it stand, and then look at where it actually led over time.

    That’s rare.

    Most people adjust their positions. Few expose the path that got them there.

    Across the series, you can feel a mind staying in motion. Ideas shift, get reworked, sometimes fall away—not for effect, but because experience pushes them in that direction.

    There’s no sense of trying to land the plane.

    Just staying in contact with what keeps changing.

    And for me, that’s where the value is.

    1. Beautiful and true words about design process grounded in lived reality, better said than I could manage.

  45. Its worth quoting this blog post by Heather Jo Flores in full here. I have never met Heather, and only just read the blog. So none of my criticisms of David were informed by any of Heathers’ writing. I am not in league with anyone, however reading Heather’s blog makes me feel an even stronger sense of the moral injury David is responsible and accountable for. When I read Heathers writing and I feel like David has some questions that need answering.

    It would be a great shame were David to leave this planet and the Permaculture community without responding to the charges of permapatriarchy, racism, ongoing appropriation from indigenous people.

    I don’t ever recall David talking or writing about gender equality, LGBTQI+ rights, race or economic equity, or reparations or compensation for settler colonialism in a receptive way. It seems that David liked being the guru and the cult of the leader, but could never adequately address the big social issues of our time and instead reverted to supporting the rhetoric of the far right.

    —-

    Who invented permaculture?
    hint: it wasn’t Bill Mollison and David Holmgren

    by Heather Jo Flores
    Bill Mollison, often credited as the “founder of permaculture,” was an Australian traveler, scientist, baker, fisherman, gardener, autodidact, and writer who researched and published extensive genealogies of Indigenous Australians, and through this work became inspired to dedicate the rest of his life to learning and teaching integrated ways for humans to live on the planet without destroying it.

    Mollison worked with many people and wrote, co-wrote, and inspired many books, organized hundreds of courses, and traveled all over the world collecting and sharing information about ecological design. He was especially enchanted with the notion of agricultural systems working together with human home systems so that each meets the needs of the other, and collaborated on a huge array of visionary design drawings with his then-colleague and illustrator, Reny Slay, (who was credited as co-author of Introduction to Permaculture but somehow never gets mentioned in any of the courses.)

    Mollison was also influenced by writers who had come before him, such as Rachel Carson (Silent Spring, 1962) Ken & Barbara Kern (The Owner-Built Home, 1961), P.A. Yeomans (Water for Every Farm, 1965), and J. Russel Smith, who wrote Tree Crops for a Permanent Agriculture (1929), the title credited with sparking the idea to call it “perma-culture.”

    And guess what? Many of the exact ideas Mollison presented in his early books can also be found in the above four books. Read them and see for yourself. He did NOT invent this concept and neither did his student David Holmgren!

    Indeed, throughout his life until he died in 2016, Mollison consistently pointed back to his sources and reiterated that he did not “own” any of these ideas, and that this type of knowledge can not and should not be owned.

    Indeed, “Permanent agriculture” is an oxymoron. Nothing in a living system is permanent and I have never considered it a service to the students to pretend that ecological living was invented by two Australian blokes in the 1970’s.

    We were all born ecological designers, and “permaculture” is an amalgamation of ancient knowings that are free and available to anyone who puts their hands in the soil.

    Unfortunately, this simple statement seems to bring out the worst among the supporters of “permapatriarchy”, who have trolled me relentlessly for a decade, to the point that I can’t really publish any article at all anymore without garnering hate speech and death threats.

    Over the years, these people have:

    made fake accounts in my name and fabricated whole conversations, to make it seem like I said all sorts of crazy things, then shared those screenshots with my personal contact information and encouraged others to leave my groups, boycott my courses, send me hate mail, and even assault me, in real life.
    posted photoshopped pictures of my body to mock online, in permaculture groups. The images are often left up by admins for weeks.
    blamed me for horrific violent, racist photoshopped images of somebody else, images they themselves had created.
    bombarded me with a steady string of hateful emails, to every message box on every network, saying stuff like “your life is less valuable than the shit on Holmgren’s shoes.”
    “People care” apparently means “dehumanize the brown girl,” in my case, and many of the self-proclaimed permaculture “leaders” seem to revel in it. I find this level of aggression not only inappropriate and out of proportion as a response to a simple statement of facts, but also note it as a clear indicator that these folks haven’t learned a damn thing about feedback, whole systems design, or sustainability.

    And, with Holmgren’s recent alliance with the far-right and active perpetuation of misinformation regarding the pandemic, I feel it is very important that “permaculture designers” who know the true lineage and history of ecological design do our due diligence to make sure that incoming students are not fed misinformation, but are appropriately directed to the indigenous, academic, and authentic sources of the material.

    For those of you reading this who have sat the fence for decades about racism, classism, sexism, sexual predation, economic exploitation, and worse, you need to make a choice: either you are teaching anti-racist, anti-patriarchal permaculture that acknowledges past and ongoing appropriation from indigenous people…or you are upholding racist permaculture and enabling the abuse of people who look like me. It happens daily, and those of us who believe that hate speech and harassment have no place in permaculture are already leaving y’all behind.

    I will close with this:

    Permaculture, by definition, defies both ownership and large-scale leadership. Permaculture is a set of actions and strategies based on site-specific, climate-aware, community-invested ecologies. In this sense, leadership beyond the immediate stakeholders is not practical nor is it possible. Permaculture is about personal responsibility, thoughtful action, and careful, ecological design. It is about science, evidence, and results. The very first thing I always teach my students is that I am NOT the authority, and that a good design needs no teacher’s approval, because a good design validates itself through the integrity of the ecological systems it perpetuates.

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